Roses forum: A separate Forum for antique roses?

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Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 15, 2018 4:19 PM CST
Oh, heck yeah -- Ingrid's right. "Antique" roses can be big enough for anyone.

Thumb of 2018-06-15/jerijen/3cdc4a

It's less size, I guess, than habit. Hybrid Teas (as a generalization) are very upright (my husband once said that they all look like they went to Military School) -- where the older roses are rounder, bushier, arching, mounding . . . . Today's modern Shrub Roses do some of that, too.


Thumb of 2018-06-15/jerijen/f2947c
'Purpurea' (A China Rose)

Name: Ingrid
Northeast San Diego County (Zone 11a)
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ingrid_vc
Jun 16, 2018 1:36 AM CST
Radly, you're quite right that at least most tea roses have a more delicate structure, although some of the older bushes can develop a more robust habit. Many of them actually have single flowers, but often in great profusion, especially during the spring flush. There may be hundreds of blooms on one bush.

Jeri, I like Clay's remark about hybrid teas, and that's one of the reasons I tend to stay away from them, but some of them nowadays do seem to make nice bushes.

Wow, your Purpurea is drop-dead gorgeous. You know by now that I don't care for red roses, but this one has such a beautiful deep color that I'd be tempted to make an exception if I had the room and some available afternoon shade. It's getting so hot up here that I'm afraid to add any more roses unless they're super tough in regard to intense heat radiation.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 16, 2018 2:04 AM CST

Moderator

I'm always amused by the notion of floribundas being "small," or maybe they just get bigger in California. Here's my Let's Celebrate, a floribunda that's larger than any of my teas and gallicas.


Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 16, 2018 2:07 AM CST

Moderator

And then there's Pomponella, which had to have an extra fence built to contain it.

Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 16, 2018 7:15 AM CST
Those are definitely the largest and most prosperous floribundas I have ever seen!
Porkpal
Zone 9, Sunset Zone 9 (Zone 9b)
Roses
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Mustbnuts
Jun 16, 2018 7:24 AM CST
I am so loving this thread! So, so much for me to continue to learn. Thank you all for posting what you have. I am setting here reading this while enjoying my turmeric tea and listening to my new fountain. Just got to see the first hummingbird come back and drink and bathe! Yes! They are finally back!

I love how the pictures are displayed on this website. I can click on them and get such a nice huge picture of the flower or plant or landscape. It is just wonderful. Especially now since the area where I live is going into the "hotter than Hades" mode for the next few months and pretty much nothing will be blooming in order to survive. I get to live vicariously through all of you for the next six months or so.

Wow! Am I the oldest member of what is now Houzz to recall the "why" as to the "regular" rose forum and the antique? The regular one was originally for hybrid teas and the antique was for antiques. When DA roses came along, the antique took them because they had the antique look and one was never supposed to post them in the "regular" rose forum. As more and more people came on to the rose forum, the "rules" relaxed and people post pictures to both.

I am OK if someone wants to do a thread of antique roses within the rose forum. A continuous thread is great if that is what makes folks more comfortable. Another thing about this forum that I like is the feature that automatically tells you if there are new posts to a thread you are watching and then taking you to those new posts. I used to do an old ascii code of control end to do the same thing but with my new computer and Windows 10, it won't take it anymore--boo! I loved all those old ascii codes I learned as it is so much faster to use them than to use a mouse!

Name: Sheila
Rogue Valley (Zone 8a)
SheilaRogueValley
Jun 16, 2018 11:09 AM CST
I too would be fine with an Antique Rose and Austin forum and a Roses forum. They both have their good points, and some of us do enjoy that system.
Name: Frank Richards
Clinton, Michigan (Zone 5b)

Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
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frankrichards16
Jun 16, 2018 11:39 AM CST
I just started watching this forum, so my opinion should be treated like a liberal commenting on a Fox News report:)

I live in South East Michigan which is usually reported as a zone 6 kind of place. However, I moved to the country. No more city micro climates:) I usually try to buy plants rated for zone 4. Zone 5 is a gamble unless you run out with heated blankets in the winter to cover your jewels. And, of course, vendors seem to have trouble with numbers.

I have ignored my roses for many years. I have over 100 roses listed in my database (aka spreadsheet). Only about 50 are alive (maybe less with an inventory). Most succumbed to the cold weather, some to the rosetta virus.

Back to the original question. I have heirloom and modern roses. Winter hardiness is more important to me. However, one rose forum seems good to me.
Name: Ingrid
Northeast San Diego County (Zone 11a)
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ingrid_vc
Jun 16, 2018 12:05 PM CST
zuzu, your "Let's Celebrate" is drop-dead gorgeous, and I could easily be convinced that it might be an old rose if I didn't study it too closely. It's certainly a rose I would consider if I had the room and climate for it (roses that color usually don't like super-hot gardens). On reflection, I think that we old rose lovers might miss out on some pretty spectacular modern roses that would fit very well into an old-rose garden, and I'm fine with having one forum only, since we can easily choose threads that interest us just by looking at the title. If someone wants to show off their beautiful "Coco Loco" I might want to pass that by (or not). I feel that by having everything in one place all of us will have a more well-rounded idea of what's out there in the rose world, and could find roses perfect for our garden that we might never have considered before. As you've mentioned, many of us already grow both types, and our gardens are all the better (and more beautiful and interesting) for it.
Northern MO (Zone 6a)
ac91z6
Jun 16, 2018 4:59 PM CST
I'm another Gardenweb drifter, and I have to say I can see the benefits to both one forum and separate ones. I don't have very strong feelings either way, but I think separate forums kept threads from falling off the main page too quickly. It did make searching a little easier - I knew I was more likely to get more relevant posts per thread found if I searched the appropriate forum for, say, Madame Legras (an old alba) or Black Magic (a midcentury HT).

Previous posters raised good points - what do we use to decide if a rose is 'antique' or not - introduction date? Class (gallica/alba/HT/floribunda etc)? The look of the flower or the plant overall? And most of us grow a combination of classes anyway. One forum does show a more accurate picture of the world of garden roses to a new gardener, or one just branching out.

I think another forum is worth considering, but I'm not a long-time garden.org user - I haven't had time to get a sense for how fast these boards move, or the community here. If something changes I think it should be because those who made garden.org what it is (like how some of us made Gardenweb what it was) feel like it's a good change for their community.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 16, 2018 5:44 PM CST
I've held off joining this discussion because I wanted to see how it went.

Here's my two cents:

Even tho' I recognize that people that are coming over to check out NGA and are comfortable having two forums on GW, I think it's kind of unrealistic to expect any other site on the Internet to mirror what you have on GW. There are pluses and minuses to every site I have used over the years. You don't get everything you want on every site.

There are a lot of features on NGA that are not on GW. They more than make up for any minuses I might have for the site.

For example, on NGA you can customize your home page so that forums you are watching appear in one section of the Home Page. You can also have a dedicated place on your home page to follow threads you are interested in following, even if you have not posted to that thread.

You can search within a given forum or you can search the whole site by doing a database search.

Every site does searches differently.

You just have to pick your priorities as to what is important to you.

For me, I like playing on a site that is only about gardening o;)
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jun 16, 2018 5:51 PM CST
Everything you said above is true. But think of this site like a garden. You can learn from each one you visit. Some things you see you want to incorporate into your own garden, somethings you would like to remove from you own garden because you see it can be done better.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 16, 2018 6:32 PM CST

Moderator

Welcome, ac91z6. You can change your site preferences (settings) to show as many as 500 items per page. When I do that, I can see all of the forum threads going back to June 18, 2015. That will keep threads from falling off the main page too quickly.

The search is actually simpler with one rose forum. You won't have to figure out whether the rose is antique or modern. At the top of the rose forum home page, on the right-hand side, you'll see a box called "Search this forum." Unfortunately, we have no threads in the results for Madame Legras, but we have 26 threads for Black Magic, including clickable links to the first post in each thread that specifically mentions the rose.

https://garden.org/forums/sear...

If you search for Madame Legras in the rose database, on the other hand, you'll find an entry with 18 lovely photos.

Rose (Rosa 'Madame Legras de St. Germain')

The Black Magic entry is even more loaded with pictures and includes a member's comment on the rose.

Rose (Rosa 'Black Magic')
Northern MO (Zone 6a)
ac91z6
Jun 16, 2018 8:25 PM CST
Thank you Zuzu - that IS a nice search feature! Don't get me wrong, I learn a lot from reading through the entire thread but it's nice to know how far down and how much of a mention the one I wanted is/has. 500 is a little too much for me (well, I doubt I have a device that will handle that much!) but it's good to know I can customize that much.

Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 16, 2018 11:25 PM CST
I think there's one thing we from the Antique Roses Forum should keep in mind -- even if there WAS a separate forum for the antique roses, what WON'T be there is the history of previous posts written on GardenWeb. Among rose growers as a whole, I think the fans of the old roses are a smaller subset, and on GardenWeb, quite a few came together to share a lot of information over the years. That reference is still available to us for searching there, but if we all are moving here, future questions can be answered just as thoroughly here, and another reference source will gradually be built again. In the example mentioned above, searching for 'Mme Legras de St. Germain' doesn't pull anything from threads here, but that's because there wasn't anyone asking about that rose here -- yet.

If we find that many people here are unsure about old roses, we can certainly start class-specific threads, and those of us growing roses of those classes can share experiences about how those particular roses do in our own garden conditions. I know that I'll certainly be posting a lot from my cemetery project as it continues, and that may be a great introduction for those here who aren't familiar with old roses and how they "behave".

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 16, 2018 11:33 PM CST
Christopher ...

You still can get to the old GardenWeb threads using Google. It's also how I found your threads that you mentioned about spring in nj and the cemetery.

In the Google Search field, you enter GARDENWEB + whatever you are looking for.

In the example above, the entry would be GardenWeb + Mme Legras de St. Germain

I got a lot of hits.

So all is not lost. I don't know how to bring anything over here without getting permission from the original poster and using a link.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 16, 2018 11:45 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:Christopher ...

You still can get to the old GardenWeb threads using Google. It's also how I found your threads that you mentioned about spring in nj and the cemetery.

In the Google Search field, you enter GARDENWEB + whatever you are looking for.

In the example above, the entry would be GardenWeb + Mme Legras de St. Germain

I got a lot of hits.

So all is not lost. I don't know how to bring anything over here without getting permission from the original poster and using a link.



Oh, yes, I know. And I'm not saying that that option would be lost to me by moving here. I'm saying that I think some people asking about a separate Antique Roses Forum here may be doing so because they don't find the resources they had on GardenWeb here -- but those resources are simply a history of posts, and that won't be magically created by making a separate Antique Roses Forum here. To have a history of posts here to use as a reference, we must begin creating it. And we do that by asking and answering questions. That newly-created history will be just as searchable here as it was there.

Before GardenWeb, there was another forum -- something like "rec.roses" or something. Jeri and some of the other long-time posters would know what I mean. When that forum faded and people moved to GardenWeb, the same thing had to occur -- rebuilding a reference data base by asking and answering questions, even if those questions were asked and answered by others before on the older forum. That would need to be done even if there WAS a separate Antique Roses Forum here.

I will add this -- the Antique Roses Forum certainly had a chatty bunch (myself included), so it won't take terribly long for a library of questions and answers to accumulate again here.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 17, 2018 12:01 AM CST
Christopher ...

Are the questions you are referring to about specific roses ?

If this is what you are referring to in the post above, each rose page in the database has a place for site users to post comments. That's the best place to put that kind of information, because it stays with the rose.

If the rose is not in the current database, a request to Zuzu is all that is needed to add the rose.

I remember "rec.roses". It didn't fade away. It was destroyed by trolls ... Glare

There were some fantastic people posting and then ............ It was pure ugly.

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 17, 2018 12:04 AM CST

Moderator

I also remember rec.roses. It was fun for a while.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 17, 2018 12:21 AM CST
Well, sometimes it's about specific roses, but other times it's about classes of roses. For example, when I was starting this garden, I was trying to figure out how much space to provide between own-root Gallicas, so I searched the GardenWeb Antique Roses Forum for threads about Gallicas in general. Then I searched for specific cultivars. Things like that might not necessarily end up in a cultivar database -- usually, those tidbits occurred during dialog that began with someone posting pictures about that rose, or asking who grows it. Like I said, the Antique Roses Forum was a chatty bunch, and I learned quite a lot of information by reading through old conversations between people talking about the roses-in-common they grew. But the only reason it was available to me to find was because those discussions began. The same thing will happen here, and having a separate space for Antique Roses won't make those conversations magically appear -- they have to be initiated again.

That's my point.

:-)

~Christopher
[Last edited by AquaEyes - Jun 17, 2018 12:22 AM (+)]
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