Roses forum: A separate Forum for antique roses?

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East-Central Mississippi (Zone 8a)
Any silver lining could have clouds
Region: Mississippi Native Plants and Wildflowers Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
RadlyRootbound
Jun 17, 2018 3:29 AM CST
Zuzu, the two photos of your roses remind me of the abundance that once grew on my land, and makes me kick myself for not taking pictures when they were in bloom years ago, when I bought the property. I had the timber cut last year, and they really wrecked the place, but I know many of the roses survived. The hillside had been cut down and leveled to make a horse riding arena by a previous owner and, not being trampled by horses anymore, it grew into what I called my "meadow". Now, imagine this "meadow" surrounded by roses as full of blooms as yours, on all sides with very few breaks, and head-high in many spots. It was beautiful! There was one spot with white roses instead of the pink that was everywhere else, and upon investigation, I found that all the branches with white blooms traced back to one branch of an otherwise pink bush--a "sport"! I don't know if that particular plant or branch survived the timber cutting melee, but I sure hope it did. I hope to have the landscaping done at my current house by the end of summer so I can start transplanting plant stock from the 10 acres to my new garden area this fall. I'm really looking forward to creating a beautiful garden like I've always wanted and getting things in the ground and out of pots that need constant attention to watering (which I'm terrible at keeping up with). So by this time next year, maybe I'll be posting some pictures of MY roses for y'all to enjoy.

Radly
"He who says his plants are always bigger & better than anyone else's and his grass, greener, is likely feeding them manure, like he's feeding you." ~Radly
[Last edited by RadlyRootbound - Jun 17, 2018 12:12 PM (+)]
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Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 17, 2018 6:53 AM CST
I, for one, will definitely stay tuned for those pictures!
Porkpal
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Calif_Sue
Jun 17, 2018 2:43 PM CST

Moderator

Well anyone game for officially starting an Antique Rose thread so the conversations, tips and chattiness can commence? Thumbs up
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Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 17, 2018 4:15 PM CST
It's OK by me.
East-Central Mississippi (Zone 8a)
Any silver lining could have clouds
Region: Mississippi Native Plants and Wildflowers Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
RadlyRootbound
Jun 17, 2018 5:13 PM CST
Of course, being a newbie on this site and especially on this "roses" forum (and topic), please feel free to take my opinion with a grain of salt (or 1/2 grain, even), but from reading the posts here of members with seniority and obviously much more experience with roses and rose-specific forums on other sites, it seems to me that it would be more beneficial to all (and especially rose newbies like me) to keep all rose topics under one forum, and if a thread is specific to only one category or type of rose, the thread title could start with "Antique Roses-..." and then list the issue. This way, if a post pertains to only one category of rose, anyone interested in that category could find it easily, and anyone not at all interested would know to gloss right over it. But I am sure there are many issues that pertain to all roses, and to scatter threads about these issues over more forum categories would make things unnecessarily complicated and more difficult to search for. Also, from just what I've read on this thread alone, there is such a crossover and muddying of distinctions between the "different" categories of roses (such as antique variety "A" × antique variety "B" = modern variety "C"; "modern" but from pure "antique" origins...huh? Confused ), that separation into myriad different forums could be argued, and THAT could REALLY get confusing! I can understand the obvious need for separation into several categories for the purpose of the showing and judging of roses, but I suspect the care and propagation of all roses share much more in common than the particular characteristics of each category divide the group.

But, as I said, I'm a brand-new newbie, so don't take that as a vote, per se, just an observation from a relative outsider. Whistling

Radly
"He who says his plants are always bigger & better than anyone else's and his grass, greener, is likely feeding them manure, like he's feeding you." ~Radly
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Roses Irises Clematis
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Calif_Sue
Jun 17, 2018 5:31 PM CST

Moderator

Brand new thread, title OK? I can edit it. Thumbs up

Antique Roses Chat & Photos
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Name: Bonnie
Texas
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RosesnTx
Jun 19, 2018 11:41 AM CST
I think it's fine, I wouldn't change it.
Name: Ingrid
Northeast San Diego County (Zone 11a)
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ingrid_vc
Jun 19, 2018 1:15 PM CST
zuzu, since I saw your rose "Let's Celebrate" I've been looking everywhere to find an on-line nursery that sell's it, to no avail (unless I were to move to England). May I ask where you obtained yours? That is one interesting and beautiful rose.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
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zuzu
Jun 19, 2018 1:29 PM CST

Moderator

I bought it from Palatine 6 or 7 years ago. It wasn't among Palatine's offerings for a while, but now I see it's back on the website. Mail orders from Palatine aren't available this time of year, so I hope it's still on the website when orders start being taken in September for next season.

https://palatineroses.com/rose...
Name: Ingrid
Northeast San Diego County (Zone 11a)
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ingrid_vc
Jun 19, 2018 2:52 PM CST
Thank you, zuzu. I had noticed that Palatine had it and that they were closed for summer. I would have thought that a rose this pretty would be more readily available. I'll keep an eye out in fall on the Palatine site, but it's been a long time since I've ordered a bare root rose.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 19, 2018 3:01 PM CST

Moderator

But if you are going to buy a bare-root rose, Palatine probably would be the best source. It certainly has been for me.

I agree that a rose this pretty should be more readily available. It has the same hand-painted look as many of McGredy's roses. It's a Fryer rose, though, and Fryer's roses are much rarer than they should be on this continent. Pickering used to have a good assortment of Fryer roses for sale, but it's gone. Luckily, Palatine still carries some.
Name: Melissa
SoCal Inland, 1272' elevation (Zone 9b)
Roses Native Plants and Wildflowers
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Tessies
Jun 29, 2018 10:56 PM CST
Mustbnuts said:
Wow! Am I the oldest member of what is now Houzz to recall the "why" as to the "regular" rose forum and the antique? The regular one was originally for hybrid teas and the antique was for antiques. When DA roses came along, the antique took them because they had the antique look and one was never supposed to post them in the "regular" rose forum. As more and more people came on to the rose forum, the "rules" relaxed and people post pictures to both.


That's how I think of the antique roses forum at gardenweb/houzz--it was for roses that looked like antiques, not just actual antiques. I grow roses that are really, really antique, like my species roses (some of which are truly ancient) as well as old garden roses (some of which are antique and some are not) and modern reproductions of the old garden roses, plus a few old-looking hybrid teas and miscellaneous others.

Now that I've been here a little over two weeks I have more of a feel of what it is like to have one big combined roses forum. At gardenweb/houzz I had the antique roses forum and the roses forum as separate items in my bookmarks toolbar in Firefox. That made it easy to switch from one to the other. I found I rarely switched into the roses forum because I grow so few roses that look modern. Now here the issue seems to be it is hard to tell what is the focus of a thread unless someone purposely puts an obvious clue in the subject (and most don't). Is it about old roses or moderns or both???? When I zip into this forum the only way to find out is to open each thread to hunt for the old rose postings. Yes, I could do a search on a specific rose or class but that would miss new threads on different old roses.

So what to do? Is there a way similar to the "[Sticky]" at the top of all the threads, something automatically in the subject line for all postings? Or add a field for a subject identifier? Like say OldR or Modern, or something along those lines? The poster could choose which or both applied to their post (maybe have a default setting--modern for instance as there are more posts on modern roses). Then forum members could set their preference to show what they wanted. All modern rose posts, all old rose posts, or both. I would find something like this very helpful.

Melissa
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 30, 2018 10:27 AM CST
The "Sticky's" here don't work for me, for whatever reason, so I would be unlikely to use them. Just sayin'.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 30, 2018 11:14 AM CST
I used to read the garden web antique forum quite often - still do from time to time - and never noticed that it was that exclusively about antiques, so I am confused about what the issue is.
Porkpal
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 30, 2018 12:07 PM CST
Porkpal -- That Gardenweb Forum was set up to be "Antiques and Austins."

But of course, if you're going to allow Austin Shrubs, you're gonna have to include OTHER modern Shrub Roses. Things like 'Annie Laurie McDowell' that are modern as all getout, but blend well with Old Garden Roses:

Then, there are things like Polyanthas, which are moderns that everyone thinks of as being "Antique" . . . And once you start stretching the parameters, well, what about "Classic Moderns" -- older HTs from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries.

And then, there are people like me who occasionally stick in something distinctly modern which fits more nearly into the niche of Old Roses . . . .
Thumb of 2018-06-30/jerijen/3dffc4

Which is why, particularly as a "Newbie" here, I'm fine with whatever way folks want to go. Group hug
[Last edited by jerijen - Jun 30, 2018 12:08 PM (+)]
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 30, 2018 12:15 PM CST

Moderator

jerijen said:The "Sticky's" here don't work for me, for whatever reason, so I would be unlikely to use them. Just sayin'.


Jeri, the "sticky" button only works for mods and admins, and we use it only to keep the current month's photos and chat thread from getting lost in the shuffle. We used to use it for general information threads, but that practice was discouraged after members complained about having to scroll down too far to reach the discussion threads.
[Last edited by zuzu - Jun 30, 2018 12:45 PM (+)]
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Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 30, 2018 12:28 PM CST
Thanks Zuzu ... Good to know.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 30, 2018 1:41 PM CST

Moderator

Tessies said:So what to do? Is there a way similar to the "[Sticky]" at the top of all the threads, something automatically in the subject line for all postings? Or add a field for a subject identifier? Like say OldR or Modern, or something along those lines? The poster could choose which or both applied to their post (maybe have a default setting--modern for instance as there are more posts on modern roses). Then forum members could set their preference to show what they wanted. All modern rose posts, all old rose posts, or both. I would find something like this very helpful.

Melissa


How is this different from the request for a separate forum? Both imply constraints that I personally find unnecessary and, frankly, quite confusing in view of some of your definitions of antique roses, such as "roses that looked like antiques, not just actual antiques" or "old-looking hybrid teas."

I, for example, grow hundreds of old garden roses and hundreds of modern roses. If I start a thread on the roses blooming in my garden this month, am I to label the thread "Modern" and then studiously avoid discussing or showing photos of old garden roses and anything else that's "old-looking"?

You can include clues to the content of your threads in the thread titles, and Calif_Sue or I can edit those titles if you failed to include those clues and now want them to be displayed.

When you request a separate forum for antique roses, you should consider the architecture of the site as a whole. This is not a rose gardening site. The rose forum is only one of 100 forums on the site. The site design is quite simple. We have general gardening forums, regional gardening forums, and forums devoted to specific plants. Roses are among the plants fortunate enough to have a separate forum. Many plants have not been offered this distinction. There are no separate forums for tulips or daffodils, for instance, and they share space in the Bulbs Forum. There are no subdivisions within the forums for specific plants. There is an iris forum, for instance, with no separate forum for bearded irises. The peony forum covers all peonies, with no separate forum for tree peonies. Geraniums and Pelargoniums share a forum, and there have been no requests to split the forum into two.

As for the idea of tabs, similar to the sticky button, to automatically filter out anything contrary to a member's preferences, I doubt that this will ever be part of the forum. Dave, our executive director, is responsible for all of the programming. He is highly receptive to suggestions that would improve communication on the site as a whole, but the addition of a unique set of tabs to accommodate the personal preferences of the members of only one forum seems like an excessive request.
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 30, 2018 1:51 PM CST
Zuzu --

I am dedicated to Old Roses, and I am the National Convener for the Heritage Roses Groups.

I hope those who are dedicated to Modern Rose don't mind us Refugees from Houzz to "horn in" and talk about Old Roses and Old Rose questions . . . and I, for one, don't mind hearing about Modern Roses.

I hate rigid rules of classification anyhow, to be honest.

LOOK! Here's a Modern Miniature Rose that I love and grow:


'Carolyn Supinger'
(Miniature, P. Barden, 2008)

Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 30, 2018 1:54 PM CST

Moderator

Super photo, Jeri. I love Paul Barden's roses.

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