Roses forum→Untitled

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Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 17, 2018 10:28 PM CST
Miss Behavin - Zary - 1998 - floribunda - Tournament of Roses × unnamed floribunda red seedling
I purchased & planted this rose from Jackson & Perkins last summer.
I took an overhead photo of this rose today. I was surprised to see this tiny pink and white rose in the camera viewfinder.
Here's what I saw:

Thumb of 2018-06-18/MargieNY/a8b4c3

There's a big difference in not only the color but also the size of the rose in question:

I have never encountered this before. Would you consider this to be a "possible" sport of Miss Behavin? Should I try to propagate a cutting of it to see if this small rose blooms next year and remains the same as shown in size and color?
Thanks in advance for your help.

Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
[Last edited by MargieNY - Jun 26, 2018 10:56 PM (+)]
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 17, 2018 10:40 PM CST

Moderator

How very strange! It looks like a little Champagne Cocktail bloom or one of the roses in Ralph Moore's Persian series. I don't think sports vary that much in size from the original rose, and it doesn't look like any of the rootstocks J&P customarily uses. Is it firmly attached to Miss Behavin' or could it be that you once had something else planted there, something that seemed to be dead and has now come back to life in the middle of the other rose bush?
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 17, 2018 11:43 PM CST
No, nothing was ever planted there before. I am positive.
I am trying to figure out if the petal shape is similar to Tournament of Roses. I know TOR has a yellow colored base like this rose. I don't know if sports come in various sizes. I am not 100% sure it is firmly attached to Miss Behavin - I will try and figure that out tomorrow. I took the photos as it was getting darker outside and it is located in a partially shaded area. I have some other photos and I will take more tomorrow.
This is the only article I could find about sport roses:

https://www.helpmefind.com/gar...
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 17, 2018 11:51 PM CST

Moderator

It's very close to some of the blooms Champagne Cocktail produces. Is it near your Champagne Cocktail? Could a piece of pruning debris have fallen there and taken root?
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 17, 2018 11:59 PM CST
Champagne Cocktail is about 30 feet away.
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 18, 2018 12:21 AM CST

Moderator

The only other explanation I can come up with is rootstock. We know it isn't Dr. Huey. J&P used to use Manetti and De la Grifferaie years ago, but then stopped and started using Dr. Huey almost exclusively. Maybe it went back to using one of them, although I can't say I see any resemblance to your bloom. We have no photos of Manetti in our database, but here are some on HMF.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

Here's a photo of De la Grifferaie from our database.

Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 10:15 AM CST
Thank you Zuzu for trying to answer my question and eliminate various possibilities. I appreciate your time and effort.
I have consulted the author of the article on sport roses from the above HMF link provided.
Kim L. Rupert stated: "it is possible for the smaller, lighter bloom to be a sport. Peace sported to Baby Peace. http://www.helpmefind.com/gard...
If I get his permission, I will post his entire response.
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 18, 2018 10:36 AM CST

Moderator

Margie, I don't know whether your latest link is supposed to take me to the Baby Peace entry or to the spot where Kim made his statement, but the link isn't working.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 10:49 AM CST
sorry about that - here we go...

Sorry [url=abouthttp://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.23449]abouthttp://www.helpmefind.com...[/url]
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 10:50 AM CST
http://www.helpmefind.com/gard...

Maybe this one will work
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 18, 2018 10:58 AM CST

Moderator

It works. Thank you. I wish it had more information and some photos in color. It certainly doesn't resemble Peace in the black and white photo, so perhaps it isn't so extraordinary for a sport to produce blooms of a different size, color, and shape.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 11:21 AM CST
Baby Peace ivory yellow, tipped with pink, more mildew resistant than Peace and blooms more freely than Peace.
Peace color is described as lemon yellow, rose pink
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 1:08 PM CST
Here is the first email I received from Kim Rupert (roseseek)

Hi Margie! Yes ma'am, it is possible for the smaller, lighter bloom to be a sport. Peace sported to Baby Peace. http://www.helpmefind.com/gard... If you're confident you can root it, give it a try. If not, mark the cane so it doesn't get pruned off accidentally, and see if it continues flowering like that next year. Hopefully, then, there will be more material to the sport so you can try rooting it and not lose the whole thing if it doesn't root easily. Good luck!):
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 18, 2018 1:13 PM CST
And, the last email sent to me from Kim Rupert as follows:
"Sure, please feel free to use any of the information you wish. Oh, another piece of evidence to demonstrate size being a possible mutation is Gourmet Popcorn, which is a sport of Popcorn. They sport to climbers and even from climbers to bushes. Summer Snow, the 1938 floribunda, was a sport of Cl Summer Snow, the climbing, whiter, seedling of Tausendschon. A climbing seedling from a climbing plant, sported to a bush. Sports can go in any direction, as long as that possibility is contained within the plant's genes. If the line is a homogenized, unstained yellow (no red tints anywhere in the plant), it can't sport to a red, as there are no red pigments contained anywhere within that plant's make up. Miniaturization comes from many sources, not just Chinensis. Ralph Moore observed it out of Wichurana breeding lines. Happenstance and Little Mermaid, both root sports of Mermaid, are miniature Bracteatas. The "Fairy Roses", the miniature multifloras still sold as seeds, are pure multiflora and "miniatures". The Gift is an example of that. It's entirely possible that the original polyantha, Paquerette, is simply a form of one of the "Fairy Roses", so miniaturization also comes out of multiflora. Why not many or even most of the other species?"
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Neal Linville
Winchester, KY (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Bulbs Cottage Gardener Roses Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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gemini_sage
Jun 26, 2018 5:13 AM CST
This is fascinating Margie! Have you been able to trace its growth to a stem or the root?
"...and don't think the garden loses its ecstasy in winter. It's quiet, but the roots are down there riotous." Rumi
Name: Beth
Northern California (Zone 9b)
Roses Enjoys or suffers hot summers Container Gardener Clematis Garden Photography Birds
Irises Keeper of Poultry Region: California Hummingbirder Cat Lover Lilies
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Beth_NorCal
Jun 26, 2018 11:04 AM CST
I hate to say it, but I bet it's just an odd bloom. I've seen some of my roses do stuff like that on occasion. But you never know. I'd mark the stem and don't cut it back very far. Wait and see what the next bloom shows.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Jun 26, 2018 11:55 AM CST
Last week, I removed the dead flower and marked the stem. If I feel confident, I will try and take a cutting to propagate it later this year. If not, I will see if if shows up next Spring. I can't tell for sure if it is attached to Miss Behavin. I bought it from J&P in a 2 quart container. I am open to suggestions.
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.

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