Roses forum: Heirloom Roses

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Name: Amanda
KC metro area, Missouri (Zone 6a)
Roses Zinnias Region: Missouri Cat Lover Dog Lover Bookworm
Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: United States of America Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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pepper23
Jun 22, 2018 2:19 AM CST
Prices are the main reason I don't shop Heirloom. I can find bigger and better roses elsewhere. Heirloom isn't that special to me. I might browse when I get really bored but then if something catches my eye I find another site for it.
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
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Ray_Gun
Jun 22, 2018 9:04 AM CST
@aquaeyes, fellow Long Islander :), appreciate the tips! I'm new to roses all together let alone buying them online so it's good to know of reputable and closer nurseries, thanks!

@zuzu, I can definitely appreciate the frustration of mislabeled roses! I hope I get what I'm paying for/expecting. Time will tell. Since these are in 1 gallon pots I'm hoping they're pretty big already and not a piddly 3-4"! They were on sale for $33 which I honestly don't even know if that's a good price. I paid about $25 for the 4 bare root ML's that I have from Jackson & Perkins. I got these in late February and waited quite awhile for growth. I figured the price difference wasn't too drastic assuming they come healthy and ready to grow/bloom quickly. Crossing Fingers!

@pepper23, what other sites do you prefer to Heirloom?
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jun 22, 2018 2:09 PM CST
One thing, Ray -- 'Peace' is a rose that was bred to be grown budded. And AFAIK, the only clones of virus CLEANED 'Peace' roses would come from two specific programs. If they're virused AND own-root, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for them.

Now, you might want to check with them, to see is their 'Peace' is VI (Virus-Indexed). If they tell you that they are free of virus because they are own root ... that's a lie. Plain and simple.

We quit ordering from the former owners long, long ago ... not JUST because we got mis-named roses; not JUST because we got virused roses; but in large part because everything we got from them had root gall. I don't mind virus, but I won't tolerate gall.
Name: Amanda
KC metro area, Missouri (Zone 6a)
Roses Zinnias Region: Missouri Cat Lover Dog Lover Bookworm
Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: United States of America Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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pepper23
Jun 22, 2018 4:42 PM CST
A Reverence for Roses is my favorite so far. Just have to stay on top of restocks by subscribing to their emails.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 23, 2018 12:07 AM CST
I discovered that Roses Unlimited has quite a few VI roses which they obtained as propagation material from the UC Davis Clean Plant Program. They don't list them as such on their website, but when I received some plants, I noticed the VI on their tags. I emailed them about this, and they said that they don't advertise them as such, but yes, they get clean versions of roses whenever possible for their "mother plants" to propagate for the roses they sell. So, chances are good that if a rose they offer is also on the UC Davis list of available VI material, you'll get a VI rose. Off the top of my head, Roses Unlimited's 'Crimson Glory' was one of them.

I can't yet post links, so you'll have to google the UC Davis page...unless a more seasoned member here can post the link for you.

Also, as Jeri said, many of the Hybrid Teas were produced for sale on rootstock, and it's a bit hit-or-miss when buying them own-root. Some will do fine, some will be wimpy, but unless you know someone who has grown them both ways and can tell you, you'll have to find out for yourself by growing them. The mostly older roses I prefer do fine own-root, so I don't bother with roses on rootstock -- especially on 'Dr. Huey', which has a reputation of becoming "immortal" in the ground, even after the top of the rose dies.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Virginia
Charleston, SC (Zone 8b)
Köppen climate classification Cfa
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scvirginia
Jun 23, 2018 12:51 AM CST
Christopher, is this the link?
http://fps.ucdavis.edu/rosesel...

Virginia
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 23, 2018 12:58 AM CST
In this garden, I need budded roses for parts of the garden. Dr. Huey can handle the root competition from the junipers located on the slope four feet above the rose bed along the fence between the house pad garden and the slope.

The only own root rose that has held its own in that bed is Kim Rupert's 'Lynnie'. In fact, at one time I though I would use 'Lynnie' as root stock and bud my own roses. That's another rose that is very good at growing roots ... Smiling
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Long Island, NY (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
MargieNY
Jun 23, 2018 8:16 AM CST
https://www.heirloomroses.com/...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 23, 2018 8:34 AM CST
It's good information, Margie, and it's great that Heirloom sell virus indexed roses. That's one of the reasons their prices are higher than many own root rose nurseries.

However, there is something they don't say. Rose can grow well and be productive plants even if they do have RMV. All of the roses I inherited from Mrs. J have RMV. All of the are 40 years older, or more, and are vigorous, productive roses.

It depends on the rose.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 25, 2018 11:49 AM CST
scvirginia said:Christopher, is this the link?


Virginia




Yep, that's it! Thanks, Virginia.

:-)

~Christopher
Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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nippstress
Jun 25, 2018 3:15 PM CST
Thanks for the thorough explanation of the reasons behind the watering habits, Lyn - glad I could get most of it appropriate for general application. I'm a trial and error gardener for the most part, and fertilizing has been heavy on the "error" side of rose gardening, so I tend to be cautious with any type of fertilizer. I guess you can't wait till the weather cools off in warm zones or you'd never fertilize all summer, eh? It helps that we have pretty good loamy soil to start with, so I don't have to fertilize beyond some alfalfa and organic mulch.
Ray, there are a lot of terrific mail order nurseries that give more value for the money than Heirloom, and Roses Unlimited is high up on my list of preferred companies. I do a bulk order from them yearly (used to be 66 roses, now 72 roses) that gives me a 10% discount plus reduced shipping so I get to explore some of their less common varieties when ordering that's been fun. Chamblees and Antique Rose Emporium also send nice sized gallon roses for reasonable costs. The Cadillac of bare root rose ordering is Palatine in Canada (amazing bare roots and they ship to the US just fine) - Regan and Witherspoon also do good bare roots, and Hortico has small bare roots but accurately labeled ones (a huge improvement over 6-8 years ago) so they get my business too. Among the smaller potted roses, I order from Burlington (very economical prices/shipping and some uncommon roses), Long Ago roses (ditto on both comments), High Country Roses, Northland, and Rogue Valley (though their stock is considerably reduced over what it used to be). Angel Gardens and A Reverence for Roses are good companies but they tend to emphasize warm weather roses that don't do well for me. There are other vendors I order from that have been a bit hit and miss.
In terms of a "reasonable price" for a rose, it's all a matter of what the rose is worth to you I guess. If anyone would sell Bella Renaissance that I've desperately tried to replace for about 6 years since it died in a drought, I'd pay the ridiculous Heirloom type prices without blinking. In general, I haven't found that any of the vendors listed above charge more than $20/rose plus whatever shipping costs to your region, and with sales it can be considerably less than this. I know Heirloom makes a deal about how shipping is free for their roses so the high costs make sense, but there's no company above that charges $13-$20 per rose for shipping to match Heirloom's gallon prices of $33-40/rose, and many of them are much less. I probably average about $23 a rose with shipping (partly because I almost never order only one rose so the shipping costs drop with multiples), and that's about what my best local nursery charges for their potted roses if I drive up to Omaha. Even the big box stores like Lowe's charge about $20 for Easy Elegance roses (well worth it - they do fabulous in our zone), though the bare root roses are less (and comparably lower quality).
Cynthia
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
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Ray_Gun
Jun 26, 2018 7:53 AM CST
Thanks everyone for the great information and insight. I really appreciate it!!

jeri, I certainly have a lot to learn when it comes to picking the best quality roses with the best chance of survival. Honestly, terms like budded/own root/VI are all new to me! I'm going to hang my hat on Heirloom's 'guarantee' that they only sell virus free, VI'd, roses and hope for the best.

Christopher, great info on that UC Davis site, thanks for sharing!

Roseblush, Good to know that RMV isn't necessarily a death sentence.

Cynthia, I'm with you on the trial and error bandwagon lol. These 3 additions will be my 5, 6 and 7th roses so I have TONS to learn! That's why I'm so excited to have found this site! Thanks much for all of those great nursery suggestions and price comparisons. I will definitely broaden my search for next year. I have a blank slate in my backyard and am looking to add a couple flower beds in the fall to prepare for Spring planting. They will, of course, be chock full of roses. :)

Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
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Ray_Gun
Jul 3, 2018 8:05 AM CST
Update: Roses arrived yesterday. Hurray! I was surprised to see that they were NOT defoliated and had some pale growth from the shipment. They got a good drink and are sitting in the shade for now. It's been super hot here the past week and I'm hesitant to put them in the ground just yet but I think I might and I'll have to jury rig some kind of shade for them.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 3, 2018 9:02 AM CST
How large are the plants ?
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
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Ray_Gun
Jul 3, 2018 9:09 AM CST
Not very large. Maybe 12-18" tall and the canes are definitely not as thick as on the grafted Mister Lincolns I got from J&P in February but I believe that is to be expected with own root. I'll get a pic posted later today.
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
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jerijen
Jul 3, 2018 11:11 AM CST
Christopher -- IF Heirloom tells you that their roses are Virus-Indexed, that's good enough, in my book.

IF, OTOH, they say that their roses are free of virus by virtue of being own-root, that is a large box of Bull Excrement.

And, if they tell you that their rose is free of virus because it came directly from -- say -- David Austin -- that is an even bigger box of Bull Excrement.

Been there. Done that. Bought that T-Shirt.
Long Island, New York, USA (Zone 7a)
Region: New York Roses
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Ray_Gun
Jul 3, 2018 12:53 PM CST
@jerijen Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing They are definitely peddling boxes o'excrement! Fingers crossed they take and are healthy vigorous plants!!
Name: Beth
Northern California (Zone 9b)
Roses Enjoys or suffers hot summers Container Gardener Clematis Garden Photography Birds
Irises Keeper of Poultry Region: California Hummingbirder Cat Lover Lilies
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Beth_NorCal
Jul 3, 2018 2:14 PM CST
I used to buy a LOT of roses from Heirloom back in the day, when the original owners ran it. I even bought a fair amount when the new people took over and acquired Cliff's EuroDesert Roses leftover stock. They still sold bands and they were more economical. Then they went to the gallons, and they were mostly $25 apiece and that included shipping. Now they're a minimum of $38 and free shipping on $50. So you have to spend $76 when they're not on sale in order to get free shipping. Ridiculous. Except, if it's a variety you can't find anywhere else, it can be worth it. If I order from them nowadays, I try and wait til there's a sale. And guess what? There's a sale now! 20% off all roses thru the 5th. I am contemplating ordering 2 or 3 to replace some that died, that no one else has. I haven't made up my mind yet. I am having a hard time justifying buying any more roses at all. With this dang sciatica, I am unable to get out and do much in the garden anymore. Just not sure I want to waste the money. Altho I reeeeeally want to replace my IRIS WEBB that I lost. Got her form Cliff before he closed up. She's a very cool and unusual rose. So... we'll see.

On that note tho... I had to ask for a replacement for a wrong rose from them earlier this yr, and had no problem whatsoever. They happily sent me a new rose free of charge. Now I'm waiting for it to bloom and make sure it's the CORRECT rose this time! I had ordered (the yr before) FRAGRANT DREAM, which is a gorgeous apricot ht. What I received bloomed yellow with a red edge. I didn't notify them at first, because one of the parents is a red & yellow rose, and often, at least for me, I've had baby own root roses bloom untrue on their first or second bloomings. So I thought it was reverting to a form of BONFIRE NIGHT. Well, after the 5th bloom cycle, I realized it was in fact JUDY GARLAND. Heirloom confirmed that from my photo and sent me a new "supposed" FRAGRANT DREAM. We shall see. It's the first time I've had them give me a wrong rose tho.

I would see no problem ordering from them, like I said before, as long as they have a sale. And 20% is a pretty good deal.
[Last edited by Beth_NorCal - Jul 3, 2018 2:15 PM (+)]
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jul 3, 2018 2:32 PM CST

Moderator

My Iris Webb, which also came from Cliff, is only a pale reflection of what it once was (and it was never an impressive rose bush even at its best). It seems to shrink each year, and I'd love to replace it, but only if I could find it grafted. I suspect it can't grow well on its own roots.

Look at this photo of Sharlene's Iris Webb, which is a grafted rose:



My own-root Iris Webb mainly produced solitary blooms, although it occasionally produced clusters of two or three blooms, which hardly deserved to be called "clusters." It certainly never produced whole bouquets the way Sharlene's does. All of the photos of impressive clusters of Iris Webb blooms on HMF are in Western Europe and Ukraine, where the trend toward own-root roses hasn't caught on.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jul 3, 2018 7:23 PM CST
jerijen said:Christopher -- IF Heirloom tells you that their roses are Virus-Indexed, that's good enough, in my book.

IF, OTOH, they say that their roses are free of virus by virtue of being own-root, that is a large box of Bull Excrement.

And, if they tell you that their rose is free of virus because it came directly from -- say -- David Austin -- that is an even bigger box of Bull Excrement.

Been there. Done that. Bought that T-Shirt.



I have no experience with receiving anything from Heirloom with "VI" or "VID" on the tag. Perhaps some of their stock is, but I've gotten only a few things from them, back before the ownership change, and none of them was tagged that way.

In my post, I mentioned that I DID receive "VI" or "VID" roses from Roses Unlimited, and in our communication, I learned they acquired quite a few things from the UC Davis program. If Heirloom has been doing the same, that's news to me, though I don't think it's far-fetched to believe.

While the Clements may have stubbornly claimed their roses were clean without being tested, I get the feeling the new owners are trying to be a bit more precise. After all, ordering some cuttings from UC Davis to root wouldn't be that expensive, and once the plants were of "harvest-size", they could simply use them to replace their previously "status assumed but not known" stock.

:-)

~Christopher

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