Roses forum→Hybrid Tea or Floribunda ?

Views: 3147, Replies: 12 » Jump to the end

silvercalibur
Jun 22, 2018 9:39 AM CST
Hi guys,

I purchased a beautiful Papa Meilland rose a few years back, in fact I purchased two from two separate places.

As far as I am aware Papa Meilland is supposed to be a hybrid tea rose, but both of the Papa Meilland roses I purchased (again both from different places) are showing signs of being a floribunda.

I may be completely wrong of course so I am asking what you guys think.

I have attached two images for you to see.

Let me know if you think they are a hybrid tea or a floribunda.

Thanks !
Thumb of 2018-06-22/silvercalibur/db4c7e
Thumb of 2018-06-22/silvercalibur/28dc98

Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Houseplants Foliage Fan Keeper of Poultry Dog Lover Birds Hummingbirder
Image
Calif_Sue
Jun 22, 2018 10:08 AM CST

Moderator

Rose (Rosa 'Papa Meilland') is a HT.
Why do you think it may be a floribunda?
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts

silvercalibur
Jun 22, 2018 10:17 AM CST
Hi Calif_Sue,

Well as far as I am aware hybrid teas have a single blossom on a long stem, where floribunda produces abundant clusters of flowers on its stems..which by looking at the two roses, they have clusters of flowers on its stems, not a single blossom.

What do you think ?
Salem, Oregon
Image
gar99010
Jun 22, 2018 10:51 AM CST
the single blossom is a generalization. also it is what rose shows want to see. in the garden it isn't uncommon for hybrid teas to have clusters

silvercalibur
Jun 22, 2018 11:37 AM CST
Well that has made me feel a lot better, thank you gar99010 for your post, I always follow descriptions such as those as 'set in stone', nice to know it isn't true in all cases :)

Name: Bonnie
Texas
Image
RosesnTx
Jun 22, 2018 7:30 PM CST
I have always been under the impression that hybrid teas and floribundas were only different in that HT are more upright in their growth and the floribundas have a more bushy growth.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
Image
AquaEyes
Jun 22, 2018 11:52 PM CST
The "one flower to a stem" is a characteristic that has largely disappeared from Hybrid Teas -- if it ever existed -- and is more of a "show standard" term. Hybrid Teas originated from crosses between Hybrid Perpetuals and Teas. Both types will frequently produce blooms in trios -- or more, if a Tea makes a candelabra. To produce "show-winning" blooms, exhibitors would traditionally "disbud" -- selecting one central bud to keep, and removing any others around it. This would focus all the "juice" into that one bud, making for a bigger bloom.

Floribundas originated from crosses between Polyanthas -- which had large clusters of small blooms -- with Hybrid Teas. The aim had several goals, including: 1) having roses produce clusters of Hybrid Tea-style blooms; 2) expand the color range of "bedding roses", for which Polyanthas in white, red, and shades of pink provided; and 3) increasing the hardiness of Hybrid Teas with Multiflora genes (from the Polyanthas.

The dividing line between Hybrid Teas and Floribundas continued to be muddied when Floribundas breeders aimed for ever-more Hybrid Tea-style blooms, and Hybrid Tea breeders wanted to expand their genepool and increase hardiness in their roses. Later, 'New Dawn' was bred with Hybrid Teas to produce repeat-blooming climbers with Hybrid Tea-style blooms, and some of that Wichura(ia)na blood filtered back into Hybrid Teas when breeders looked to these climbers for adding vigor to their roses. Wichura(ia)na also added an extra dose of cluster-flowering trait back into Hybrid Teas descended from 'New Dawn', and so most Hybrid Teas bred since the 1950s or so will be cluster-flowered to a degree, at least. But the show standard still exists, and exhibitors simply disbud for the show. And if a breeder is aiming for Hybrid Teas, but gets an otherwise good seedling that lacks Hybrid Tea flower form, it may be introduced as a Floribunda -- since, at this point, you could almost treat one of the newer Hybrid Teas or Floribundas as either, depending on culture and pruning.

'Papa Meilland' comes from a long and inbred line of dark-red fragrant Hybrid Teas, and happens to not have any recent Floribunda or Polyantha ancestry. When you see clusters of blooms, that's usually a good sign -- it means the rose is doing well enough to produce them. I think it was Graham Stuart Thomas who wrote that nowadays it would be better to simply refer to Floribunda and Hybrid Tea roses as "bush roses" or something to that effect, since besides being used for exhibition, they're frequently grown as bedding plants.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
zuzu
Jun 23, 2018 1:33 AM CST

Moderator

I never disbud and it's very rare for my hybrid teas to bloom in clusters. There are a couple of reasons for this, and one of them is a matter of terminology. The first reason is that many of my hybrid teas date back to the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. They were bred to produce a single bloom rather than a cluster, and that's what they do. The other reason is that many of my other "hybrid teas" are actually Pernetianas and Grandifloras.

Pernetianas are no longer treated as a class of their own. They're lumped into the hybrid tea class, but many of them bloom in clusters and very few have the characteristic high-centered blooms of a hybrid tea.

The term "Grandiflora," which was coined in the middle of the 1950s to describe the class of roses resulting from crosses of hybrid teas with floribundas, is not recognized in the UK and possibly not recognized in other countries in general. It isn't even recognized by some nurseries in the United States, so a grandiflora from England or from David Austin's nursery in Texas is likely to be marketed as a hybrid tea or a floribunda.

So, I do have some "hybrid teas" that bloom in clusters, but they're either Pernetianas or they're roses bred in the UK that probably would be classified as grandifloras if they had been bred in the United States.
(Zone 6b)
Cat Lover Moon Gardener
Image
WitchyWV
Jun 23, 2018 9:46 PM CST
I remember a Paul Zimmerman video discussing pruning having an effect on this. Something like pruning lower, makes more single long stem, but less drastic pruning gives you more flowers. I've seen hybrid teas that cluster, and some that never/rarely do. I usually like anything that's labeled grandiflora, because it lets me know what to expect.
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Image
jerijen
Jun 24, 2018 3:27 PM CST
When we grew HTs, many of them naturally produced clusters of blooms. In those days, we were showing roses, so we disbudded, to produce one large central bloom with no sidebuds. (Nowadays, or out of rose show season, I wouldn't bother.)

Likewise, exhibitors of Floribundas generally remove the terminal bud, to produce even clusters of blooms.

And even there, the "fashion" has changed. At one time, it was "correct" for a Floribunda spray to show "stages of bloom." When last I paid attention, judges wanted all the blooms in the spray to be at "exhibition stage," as nearly as possible.

Remember, anyhow, that the introducer gets to class his/her introduction. If they say it's an HT, it's an HT, even if it always bloom in clusters. If they say it's a Florrie, it's a Florrie, even if it never sets a spray.

Ralph Moore's 'Mr. Bluebird' ('Mister Bluebird'??) was introduced as a Miniature, even tho it was 'Old Blush' x 'Old Blush' . Why? Because as a Miniature, it would sell. As a China, it would not.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
zuzu
Jun 24, 2018 3:35 PM CST

Moderator

I have no experience with exhibitions, but I love the idea of floribunda sprays showing "stages of bloom." Too bad that changed.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Houseplants Foliage Fan Keeper of Poultry Dog Lover Birds Hummingbirder
Image
Calif_Sue
Jun 24, 2018 3:40 PM CST

Moderator

I agree
My gardening Blog!
Handmade quilts, new & vintage fabrics in my Etsy store. Summer Song Cottage
Instagram Sewing posts
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
Jun 24, 2018 5:15 PM CST
That is a lot more interesting, I agree.
Porkpal

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Roses forum
Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.

Member Login:

[ Join now ]

Today's site banner is by lauriemorningglory and is called "Heart of the Sunflower"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.