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Jul 1, 2018 6:28 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
"Pernetiana roses were in great demand in the first half of the 20th century, and although they have now been relegated to the hybrid tea class, many rosarians believe they should still be regarded as a class of their own."

That's the introductory paragraph to an article I wrote for this site three years ago. The article focuses mainly on Pedro Dot's roses, but there is some information on Pernetianas in general.

https://garden.org/ideas/view/...

Please add any informatiion you have about these roses and any photos you have of Pernetiana roses.

We have 72 listed in our database, most of them with photos. If you want to find a list of them, go to the Rose Database home page, click on "Search by characteristics," scroll down to the "Class" field, check the "Other" box, and type Pernetiana. Unfortunately, they're no longer in a class of their own officially, so there's no checkbox for them specifically. I can't leave a link because it's too long. If anyone knows that trick to shorten links, please post a link to the list in this thread.

I'm adding a photo of gruss an Coburg because threads without thumbnail photos tend to be ignored.



(Edited to change the number in our database from 58 to 72)
Last edited by zuzu Jul 24, 2019 3:21 AM Icon for preview
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 1, 2018 6:43 PM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
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Jul 1, 2018 6:54 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Thank you, Margie. I tip my hat to you.
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Jul 1, 2018 9:39 PM CST
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX (Zone 9a)
Cat Lover Charter ATP Member Keeper of Poultry I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Keeps Horses
Roses Plant Identifier Farmer Raises cows Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 2
Computer skills always impress me.
Porkpal
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Jul 1, 2018 11:04 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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And what a gorgeous colorful list! Lovey dubby
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Jul 4, 2018 9:41 AM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 6b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
Two of my reference books, A Rose Odyssey (1937) and The Companion to Roses (1982), both have sections on Pernetiana roses that are part biography and part horticultural history.

The author of A Rose Odyssey, J.H. Nicolas, visited Pernet-Ducher in person and recounts his experience:

"The late Joseph Pernet-Ducher, of Venissieux, was incontestably the greatest rose hybridizer the word has produced, and the Pernetiana strain will remain forever a monument to him... Pernet had a dream which, he told me, started when, working with Alegatiere, he saw each spring the glory of a large bush of Persian Yellow in bloom. He would someday bring that color into the garden rose. It became an obsession with him. Persian Yellow proved to be female sterile, but the pollen is sometimes potent. Pernet applied it to a conglomeration of proved seed-bearing varieties of the Hybrid Perpetual class. He succeeded in raising two seedlings, one from Antoine Ducher, a red Hybrid Perpetual which created quite a sensation and was named 'Soleil d'Or'... He thought he had a pure yellow rose in 'Rayon d'Or' in 1910, but the plant proved addicted to dieback and defoliation. It was only in 1920 that the perfect yellow rose arrived, 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet'. That rose was the sensation of a century! Pernet was proud of this rose and he told me once, 'You will be long dead and buried before another yellow rose surpasses it."

Now jump to the partial accounting given in The Companion to Roses:

"In 1883, Pernet began his attempts to secure a worthwhile hybrid from the pollen of foetida roses, and tried many hundreds of crosses with various hybrid perpetuals but without result. Success came in 1900 with pollen from a Persian Yellow and seed from 'Antoine Ducher', a hybrid perpetual with red flowers. The seedling raised was of no consequence, but Pernet-Ducher let it grow. The following year, when he came to examine it, he saw what he had failed to notice before: another seedling had appeared beside the first. This second generation was 'Soleil d'Or', which through 'Rayon d'Or' provided many of the most vividly coloured modern roses - bright yellow, orange and copper.

"The Pernet-Ducher nursery continued to produce excellent roses well into the 20th Century - in particular, 'Souvenir de Claudius Pernet', a beautiful, if tender, true yellow rose with a darker centre, which has imparted its good looks to many other modern large-flowered varieties; it won a gold medal at the Bagatelle contest. This rose was introduced in 1920 to commemorate Pernet-Ducher's son. Because his regiment remained inactive during the early days of World War I, he had resigned his officer's commision in the French army and joined the ranks; he was mortally wounded soon afterwards. Pernet's other son, Georges, was also killed in action the same week, in 1915, and he too was commemorated with a rose, 'Souvenir de Georges Pernet', which also won a gold medal at the Bagatell trials. But Pernet-Ducher himself never really recovered from the loss of his sons."

Here is a group photograph from A Rose Odyssey with Pernet-Ducher in center, with the pocket-watch chain. The caption reads, "Rare photograph of famous rosarians gathered in London in 1913 to award the Daily Mail prize to the rose Mme. Edourd Herriot."


Thumb of 2018-07-04/Mike/7a7467
Last edited by Mike Jul 4, 2018 8:52 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 5, 2018 11:39 PM CST
Name: Beth
Northern California (Zone 9b)
Birds Roses Keeper of Poultry Lilies Irises Hummingbirder
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Hmmm... didn't realize I had that many of them! Here's ones I have photos of:

AMELIA EARHART - not a real great bloomer, blows fast


AUTUMN - love the colors, decent repeat, blows fast




CATALONIA - rarely blooms, not a great plant I guess...


CONDESA DE SASTAGO - another not a great bloomer, but pretty when it does


DUQUESA DE PEÑARANDA - pretty... just died on me...


FEDERICO CASAS - not a great bloomer, but a very cool looking bloom


JEAN COTÈ - I think it died...


POINSETTIA - a pretty decent bloomer, also blows fast


REV F PAGE ROBERTS - still a small baby own root, not a great bloomer


SHOT SILK - another stingy one...


SIMONE GUERIN - stingy,. but this one bloomed recently rather nicely


SOLEIL D'OR - just died on me...


SOUVENIR DE PIERRE GUILLOT - one of the best of the bunch. Good blooms and decent repeat...


SUNBURST - just got it last yr from Hortico. So far, pretty decent bloomer


Lost PRES H HOOVER and TALISMAN... oh and RED TALISMAN. Not the best class of roses in my garden unfortunately... Too stingy and they blow fast!
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Jul 6, 2018 1:57 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Thank you, Beth, for the great photos and information. That added five more roses to our database list of Pernetianas. Poinsettia hadn't been in our database until just now, and a few others were there but hadn't been identified as Pernetianas.

I also have found Shot Silk and Simone Guerin to be stingy with blooms, but I don't have that problem with the Dot roses. Federico Casas and Catalonia, in particular, seem to be perpetually in bloom.
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 6, 2018 8:00 AM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Beth, thank you for sharing your photos and evaluations of your Pernetiana roses with us. What a beautiful collection! Did you grow them in full sun or partial shade? If so did you find a difference as to how they performed?
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
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Jul 6, 2018 10:03 AM CST
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Those who are on Facebook might want to look up Daniel Nauman. He has all of Vintage's Pernetiana collection, and he's been posting photos regularly. Great stuff.
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Jul 6, 2018 2:07 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Houseplants Foliage Fan Keeper of Poultry Dog Lover Birds Hummingbirder
Ohh can we lure him over here??!!
My gardening Blog!
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Jul 6, 2018 3:26 PM CST
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Shoot, Sue, worth a try. I think you can find him relatively easily . . .

https://facebook.com/daniel.na...
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Jul 6, 2018 6:12 PM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
What makes a rose a 'pernetiana' ? There are other breeders other than Joseph Pernet-Ducher who have roses classed as pernetiana.

If the seed parent or the pollen parent is classed as a pernetiana, then the rose is a pernetiana ?

or

If there are several roses classed as pernetianas in the linage, does that make a rose a pernetiana ?

or if there is only one rose classed as a pernetiana in the lineage, does that make a rose a pernetiana ?
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Avatar for porkpal
Jul 6, 2018 8:00 PM CST
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX (Zone 9a)
Cat Lover Charter ATP Member Keeper of Poultry I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Keeps Horses
Roses Plant Identifier Farmer Raises cows Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 2
Good question.
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Jul 6, 2018 10:25 PM CST
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
This is an abbreviated version of the story. Pernet wasn't the first or only person to cross a form of R. foetida into other roses, but his line was the one, by far, which carried through to many more further generations. Other breeders who raised "Pernetiana" roses were simply continuing his line.

Now, as to what makes a rose a Pernetiana, there are a couple other things to mention. These roses descended from 'Soleil d'Or', which wasn't a Hybrid Tea. But it was bred to the early Hybrid Teas of that time, in an effort to dilute the negative aspects of R. foetida. Pernet's goal was to transfer just the unfading yellow trait from R. foetida into the popular roses of the day, which were the relatively new Hybrid Teas, and "breed-out" the negative stuff. The early generations kept showing some of R. foetida's annoying traits, such as being prone to die-back and disease, "floppy form", blowing fast, and the "annoying" (to show people) dark centers to the blooms. These roses were clearly different from the other Hybrid Teas because they carried these traits, and needed a bit more attention when growing them. So it made sense to give them a name that separated them from the other Hybrid Teas. But over generations of breeding to "better" Hybrid Teas, those R. foetida traits were diluted to the point that the only difference between these Pernetiana-descended Hybrid Teas and the others was that the former carried unfading yellow. So, at that point, there was no need to maintain a separate class, since buying a Hybrid Tea with unfading yellow no longer meant having to deal with the negative R. foetida traits to such a degree that these roses needed different care than the others.

Whenever Pernetiana discussion comes up, I'm reminded of this blog post, so I'm sharing it here:

http://rosomanes.blogspot.com/...

:-)

~Christopher
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Jul 7, 2018 12:02 AM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
Thank you, Christopher ... I tip my hat to you.

With all due respect, I am wondering if there isn't something more.

When I checked the descendant lineage report on HMF, they have over 15,000 roses listed as descendants of 'Soleil d'Or'. That's what made me ask the question.

I was looking at the lineage of 'Peace' and the pollen parent, 'Margaret McGredy' (1927) is listed as a pernetiana. MM is a cross of 'The Queen Alexandra Rose' x 'The Queen Alexandra Rose'. The lineage of the 'The Queen Alexandra Rose', (1918) classed as a pernetiana, is unknown. However, in reading the REFERENCES for the rose, Sam McGredy IV wrote, "Grandfather bred it from the' Austrian Copper'. " 'Austrian Copper' is another name for R. foetida

Since the lineage of 'The Queen Alexandra Rose' is unknown, we don't know if 'Soleil d'Or' is in the mix.

I am just being curious. It's been a long time since I studied the perts and was giving myself a refresher course while taking a break from other research I was doing today.

I am wondering if I am missing something ... that's all.

btw ... I loved the blog post ... Smiling
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
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Jul 7, 2018 8:50 AM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 6b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
One of Brent Dickerson's books, The Old Rose Adventurer, has a large chapter on Pernetianas, and is considered perhaps the best published description of this group. I sent him an inquiry about it this week as I don't have this reference, and he responded by saying that "The Pernetianas are interesting and beautiful; but they're neglected as a group, just cited as a step in rose history when in point of fact they're very worthy roses in and of themselves. That big chapter on them would be in The Old Rose Adventurer; but there's an important addition to that chapter in The Old Rose Index, to wit, the entry in that latter book on 'Pedro-Costae' on page 160."

The addition of which he speaks is the Pernetiana hybridized by Pedro da Costa in 1889 from 'General Jacqueminot' (HP) x 'Harison's Yellow' (F).

Thumb of 2018-07-07/Mike/3eb2c2

Speaking of Zuzu's original reference to Pedro Dot, here is a photo from my copy of A Rose Odyssey, showing Dot's garden in Spain. Look at the sheer size of the blooms! One can only regret that it wasn't published in color. And by the way, if you are looking for some good summer reading (or even better, some good winter reading when you aren't in the garden), I highly recommend this book. Published in 1937, it is long-since out of print, but you may be able to find second-hand copies on Amazon or bookfinder.com. As noted by the author, J.H. Nicolas, "This is not a rose book but a rose travelogue. My object is to bring America to a closer acquaintance with the European rose world, its personalities, its methods, and its contributions to rose culture."

The author was the uncle of one of my mother's friends, and she gave me not only Nicolas' own inscribed copy of his book to his wife, but his original manuscript. Nicolas held many awards, and he was Director of Research for Jackson & Perkins Co., when it was once the pre-eminent rose supplier in the U.S.

Thumb of 2018-07-07/Mike/149757
Last edited by Mike Jul 7, 2018 9:33 AM Icon for preview
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 7, 2018 9:10 AM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
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Jul 7, 2018 9:35 AM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 6b)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
Margie, that's an excellent site link, especially since it allows you to buy the ebook of The Old Rose Index for $3.03!
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Jul 7, 2018 9:41 AM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
Lyn, I think that what you were missing has been answered above. What perhaps may become a revival of the group if contemporary breeders would start new crosses to fix pernetiana characters by back-crosses. I've yet to discover if anyone has any of P.Dot's roses in this part of the world. If so I would happily put them of my intended crosses list... Smiling
Arturo

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