Cactus and Succulents forum: Photo page photo mismatches

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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 6:19 AM CST
.... that isnt a valid reason to slap something not even resembling a species under a name, and supporting it. It would be the same a placing a diseased , etiolated, or dead specimens, under what should be a healthy one, and there is a question IF they are the same species, and not some look alike.
Name: Thijs van Soest
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mcvansoest
Jul 8, 2018 10:34 AM CST
No you question the ID, I for one am pretty happy with that ID. I could be wrong and the ID on the picture could be wrong it is a creative commons image after all, but none of your arguments as to why it is not the plant in question are unconvincing: the wrong shape and color, which as I stated above are simply signs of the plant being stressed out.

A stressed out plant can be completely healthy, sun and water stress happens to cacti and many other succulents. For many (especially cacti) it is a yearly event that is a normal phase in their life cycle. Omitting those kind of images from the database would give an incredibly one-sided and highly unrealistic view of what a plant looks like.

Based on your last post, you are essentially arguing that pictures of any Aloes not showing their normal form of some green color and open rosette shape (or any other plants showing non ideal shape or color) should not be posted, because in Aloes any reds, browns, or other stress colors, and forms that are clamped up or show brown leaf tips that have somewhat died back in your opinion are showing a non-ideal image of the plant that might imply they are not healthy. That makes simply no sense.

I for one would love to see the broad variety of forms a species can have demonstrated from simple intra-species varieties to different responses to adverse conditions. That is the luxury we have with this online database over a printed book where one or two images are usually the max of what can be printed with each plant. Let's show that variety because we can, which at the same time can be an incredible tool to people here most of whom are growing these plants under non-ideal conditions allowing them to see the variety of appearances a species might have.
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 11:25 AM CST
Youre implying that, a VERY stressed out dehydrated plant is the same as one it its regular state? Or one that should be considered common? And youre implying that stressed out aloes , that turn color,are showing the SAME process as that cactus?FOR ONE, aloes still look like the species even when color is changed! TWO, the cactus looks nothing like the original, and the hue is too extreme to provide proper ID,
Rib arrangement is still wrong, and the spines are a bit off. FINALLY, tell me for one, do you have a "extremely stressed out" specimen, under that name, looking like this? Unless you have, there is no point in your arguments. What should be shown, is the average, NOT extreme cases! Since you did compare the aloe- fun fact, aloes are stressed WAY more often than echinopsis in cultivation, even to the point of chaining color. I for one, have had this happen only twice to an echinopsis, and due to UV rays and heat. And it still didnt look that extreme, and havent even seen stuff like this, EVEN in various echinopsis habitats! Which must mean that this plant is possibly cultivated in improper conditions(too hot/too dry)! So, ill ask again, provided even if the plant is some kind of weird obrepanda subspecies, in extreme stress, to be labeled as an average plant, under normal echinopsis obrepanda, not subspecies?????????
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 11:32 AM CST

Moderator

The conditions a plant grows under are irrelevant to where the plant should be filed in the database.

A normal species entry is suitable for any plant sharing the same name, whether it be a subspecies or variety (or not). For example nearly all the agaves on this page are subspecies shawii, even though they are filed under the species entry.

Shaw's Agave (Agave shawii)
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Jul 8, 2018 11:49 AM (+)]
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 11:56 AM CST
.... from the experience regarding the selenicereus photo being epiphyllum, some plants DO have subspecies listed. That being said, if it is a subspecies, thus should be stated in the photo, to avoid confusion. That being said, relevant to the photo being discussed, it is unsure if it even is a subspecies, just an extremely unnaturally stressed out plant.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 12:20 PM CST

Moderator

I'm trying to explain how the database works, Stefan. Just because a subspecies or variety is listed does not mean it has to be occupied. Many/most photos in the database are not captioned with a subspecies or variety, or filed under the most specific entry possible. What matters is that the photo appears under a correct one.

A relevant example:

Echinopsis
Violet Easter Lily Cactus (Echinopsis obrepanda)

The first entry is sort of a repository for Echinopsis pictures that people have not been able to more specifically identify, and it could very well also include obrepanda pictures, in theory.

I would think that by commenting on the relevant photos where you have ID questions, you might invite some background or insight from the person responsible for uploading them into the database. Not everyone pays attention to all the little details, but you would be surprised by what you can learn from a polite question. Smiling For example, what kind of plant abuse leads to plants shrinking up or changing appearance in odd ways.
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Jul 8, 2018 12:23 PM (+)]
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 12:27 PM CST
The uploader is an admin, that uploads photos on a "basis" i guess? But anyway, from what ive checked quickly, the plants are a HUGE variety, everything from orchids to various annual flowers,to some species of cacti. But, unlike the users of this forum, the user's specialization likely isnt cacti, or lacks any specialization whatsoever(jack of all trades, master of none for example).That being said, the plant in question looks like a part of display, and its higlu unlikely the user can provide specifics, and in the vast amount of photos,a margin for human error exists........
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 12:49 PM CST

Moderator

If you doubt the contributor will be able to provide background info, you can often get the info yourself. By a quick internet search for the species and the name credited on the database photo, here is the original:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/...

And by a quick search for the garden:

http://www.jardinexotiquerosco...

So now you know exactly where the plant was growing in northwestern France. I bet Rob could have gotten you the same information if you had asked, and I bet you could have gotten it yourself if you had looked.

For the record, as a matter of accuracy, I have observed ID errors in Wikipedia fairly often but not regularly, so it is not necessarily something to rely upon as a credible source. In this case I have no particular reason to doubt it, but I don't have much of an opinion either way. The name was probably provided by the garden.
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Jul 8, 2018 12:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 1:00 PM CST
..... Again, human error. Also, from my knowledge,this garden isnt among the more reputable ones, especially for cacti.... Like Kew, Huntington? was it?, the one in berlin, canary islands, barselona think yalta was there too.....also, while most of the plants have labels, there still is a possibility this one didnt have one or was labeled incorrectly.......AND, from what ive seen too, there are mutant and sunburnt plants there as well...
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 1:05 PM CST

Moderator

The credibility of a botanical garden is not the point. I'm trying to explain how you track down a plant in a picture, to the extent you might learn something from its origins. I have no interest in debating the accuracy of that ID or the reputation of a botanical garden. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm trying to provide more information, that's all.
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 1:07 PM CST
Well the main issue of this debate is the plant in question- and it doesnt look like it should. While digging into it , is sometimes helpful, this time it offered minor insight.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 1:11 PM CST

Moderator

I am always happy to offer minor insight. Smiling
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 8, 2018 1:39 PM CST
Well, in the end, there are still wrongly ID plants over there. Shouldnt there be some kind of filter? revision? approver-person? monitoring? Guess i aimed to high. Besides, i dont consider myself good in at least 6, maybe 10 cactus genera?
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 8, 2018 1:53 PM CST

Moderator

You and I (and Thijs and anyone else with insight) are the filter. The monitoring is a group effort and relies on a sequence of events starting with a comment on the relevant photo page (as mentioned above). Those cactus images are not the first that have needed relocation. It is an ongoing process. Your eyeballs (and any other human eyeballs) are the best resource we have when deciding where images should go in the database.

There is actually a pretty robust system in place whereby everyone's opinion is taken into account and changes are made where necessary. As I would hope should be clear based on the Epiphyllum experience.
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Jul 8, 2018 1:54 PM (+)]
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Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
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purpleinopp
Jul 9, 2018 8:21 AM CST
I have purposely added many images of sunburned leaves, ranges of leaf size, sun-stressed, drought-stressed, etiolated, faded, frost-bitten, etc... for educational purposes, usually with captions but I may have forgotten on some of them.

It should not be assumed that everyone has an interest in every specimen being ideal, and so often people obtain plants in various ways, often in terrible condition. Almost all BBS-purchased plants have lost whatever color they can achieve from exposure to direct sun. Many plants are chameleon-like, wildly changing their color and other aspects of their appearance over the course of a year or their lifetime. Having some images in the database of plants in all kinds of conditions makes it much more easy to recognize the less than perfect ones, and what might be causing them to look less than perfect. Being an imperfect specimen does not change a plants' ID.

Simply railing about possible mistakes without trying to help investigate them seems like an unproductive activity to me. That would be aiming low, not high. Your concerns sound worth discussing, if broached according to the conventions established on this site for discussing such concerns.
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 9, 2018 9:06 AM CST
... the are some gaps in that line of though, but in a nutshell, youre purposely saying that there should be very stressed out plants, for the reason that is what youve encountered, and you purposely upload damaged or sick plants. As for the first part, id rather recommend people to avoid stressed out plants, since amateur growers, not well versed in cacti and succulents, may think that "stressed is natural" or " overdoing with care if its stressed is a good thing" . What im saying in a nutshell is that I strongly discourage the purchase of etiolated, stressed, diseased and damaged plants! While you did label your photos, bear in mind, that a possibility exists that someone will make a mistake, and think that something damaged or etiolated , uploaded without a label, is what they should be looking for, or is healthy. Im not denying that a , lets say, damaged agave americanna, is an agave americana, but im questioning its validity , if a a photo of a dying post bloom agave plant, resembling americana , is a valid example. Instead, wouldnt it be more reasonable to post said damaged/diseased, malformed plants, under the disease/damage? eg, a gymno with red mite, under plants wuth red mite damage, a ferocactus with mealybugs, under plants with meallybugs, a etiolated cereus, under etiolated plants etc.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Jul 9, 2018 9:45 AM CST

Moderator

Stefan, the condition of a plant does not and will not affect where it goes in the database. That is how the system works here. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that, but it is not going to change.

I personally find the diseased/affected plants informative, especially when they are clearly labeled in the caption. For example:



And the etiolated plants in the database also provide great examples to hold up to users in the forums when discussing the effects of low light, and what to avoid. So having these images, like the images of stressed plants, provides a useful ongoing resource. For example.

https://garden.org/thread/view...
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Jul 9, 2018 10:25 AM (+)]
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Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
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purpleinopp
Jul 9, 2018 10:29 AM CST
I do not buy plants that I think are in poor condition, nor am I advocating that, and did not say either of these things.

The pics I've uploaded of various damages and stresses were caused by me, either purposely or accidentally.



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Name: Jai or Jack
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Jai_Ganesha
Jul 9, 2018 10:33 AM CST
I don't think Stefan is advocating buying diseased plants. From my reading, I understand his concern that if there are many pictures of a diseased, damaged, or etoliated any-given-species in the database, users could see that, think it's neat/cool/pretty/normal, and go buy a similarly diseased plant.

But I also think that concern is way out of proportion because most gardeners have good sense about them. And most people who are using the "National Garden Association" are knowledgeable enough to see this. Not all (which is where the concern comes in, as I understand it), but most.
Keep going!
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Jul 9, 2018 10:36 AM CST
Baja,While the damage to the aeonium is minor at best, doesnt simply compare to the stress levels of the alleged e.obrepanda. And simply placing a flower stalk, in bromeliad(dyckia), kind of defeats the purpose of the whole topic- it simplifies things, making specifics redundant.
Purpleinopp. I never said that you are, or that you should. But i am saying, someone ignorant or lazy will be fooled into thinking such photos are OK specimens of plants. Imagine if a less reputable users uploads something w.o. a caption under a common plant, and problems will pop up.

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