Roses forum: August 2018 -- Photos and Chat

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Name: Shyam
San Francisco, CA (Zone 10b)
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Rose_Guy1127
Aug 21, 2018 10:58 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:

Another thing you can do to facilitate drainage, if your containers are on hardscape, is lift them up just a little bit so that the excess water can drain out more easily. You don't need to use those expensive, fancy pot feet. Just something ... even a few well placed stones, that will lift the pot just a bit to make space between the bottom of the pot and the surface of the hardscape. That allows the extra water to drain out more easily.



@Canadian_Rose: I second Lyn's suggestion. I place planks and flat stones to make space between the bottom of the pot and the ground. It definitely helps in proper drainage. Another thing that I do, which I am sure you are aware of, is I put a 1/2 - 1inch of gravels at the bottom of the pot before filling in with potting soil. That contributes to better drainage as well.
[Last edited by Rose_Guy1127 - Aug 22, 2018 12:30 AM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 21, 2018 11:31 PM CST
Shyam ...

Thank you for sharing your experience. However, putting a layer of gravel on the bottom of a container actually impedes drainage. You are, creating a perched water table effect.

btw ... I learned about this from another NGA member ... Smiling

I can just hear you saying, "What is a perched water table ?'

Altho' the focus of this link is about succulents, the explanation as to why you should not use gravel at the base of your plants is quite good:

https://sublimesucculents.com/...

It applies to all container plant growing.

You clearly want to put something over the drainage holes so that the planting soil doesn't drain out. My solution while planting my roses in containers has been to use chucks of styrofoam. Living in the mountains, I have a lot of my dry goods and cleaning supplies shipped up the mountain by Walmart. Altho' they still us other packing materials, I still get a lot of styrofoam.

I create a layer of about one inch of chucks, I used to use the styrofoam peanuts, to cover the base of the pot. It allows water to drain through it quite well, holds the soil in the pot and does not soak up moisture.

I am certain other gardeners have come up with other methods ... Smiling , but putting gravel in the base of a container, just does not work in the long run.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 22, 2018 12:02 AM CST
Shyam ...

Thank you for sharing your experience. However, putting a layer of gravel on the bottom of a container actually impedes drainage. You are, creating a perched water table effect.

btw ... I learned about this from another NGA member ... Smiling

I can just hear you saying, "What is a perched water table ?'

Altho' the focus of this link is about succulents, the explanation as to why you should not use gravel at the base of your plants is quite good:

https://sublimesucculents.com/...

It applies to all container plant growing.

Another link:

http://www.clematisqueen.com/c...

You clearly want to put something over the drainage holes so that the planting soil doesn't drain out. My solution while planting my roses in containers has been to use chucks of styrofoam. Living in the mountains, I have a lot of my dry goods and cleaning supplies shipped up the mountain by Walmart. Altho' they still us other packing materials, I still get a lot of styrofoam.

I create a layer of about one inch of chucks, I used to use the styrofoam peanuts, to cover the base of the pot. It allows water to drain through it quite well, holds the soil in the pot and does not soak up moisture.

I am certain other gardeners have come up with other methods ... Smiling , but putting gravel in the base of a container, just does not work in the long run.

The concept of a perched water table can be used in the garden to slow drainage and I use it parts of my garden that drain too fast.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Shyam
San Francisco, CA (Zone 10b)
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Rose_Guy1127
Aug 22, 2018 12:29 AM CST
@RoseBlush1: Thanks for exposing me to the perched water table effect concept! I learned something new. Yup, I looked up the definition of perched water table effect :)

I used medium sized lava rocks/gravels. Therefore, it did not block the drainage hole or drain out the potting soil. So far I had zero drainage issue or draining of potting soil. I think it comes down to the shape and size of gravel that may or may not block the drainage hole. Again, I am stating this from my personal experience. As we all know that there is no cookie-cutter approach when it comes to growing roses, so what works for me might not probably work for someone else.

On the same note, I am going to experiment with styrofoam peanuts when I plant roses in containers in future. I could probably make a cross-comparison study between rose grown in a container with lava rocks and the one with styrofoam peanuts.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 22, 2018 12:37 AM CST

Moderator

I cover the drainage holes with a dryer sheet -- Bounce or one of the other brands. It keeps earwigs, slugs, and other pests from climbing into the containers from the bottom and does away with any pests entering from the top as well. I actually never use dryer sheets in the dryer because I hate the way they smell, but I use them in a variety of ways for pest control.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 22, 2018 12:41 AM CST
Shyam ... using the larger rocks can work much better than gravel, BUT, you may want to read more about the perched water table effect because it impacts the saturation of the soil in the container ... Smiling
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Aug 22, 2018 7:12 AM CST
The issue is that water does not like to move from one type of soil to another, so you want the same medium from top to bottom.
Porkpal
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Aug 22, 2018 8:29 AM CST
I suspect that many are unaware that when you pot soil inside a container, one major attribute of soils is no longer there: structure. This was achieved by mixing the former soil with other ammendments and destroying what were the original waterways (minute) that existed before that ammount of material was dug up and placed inside the container. It's no longer soil as it is while its inside the ground. Soil is not a mathematical addition of components: its very much more than that and has a very critical minor component ( about 4-5% normally) which is related with life: the OM and all the millions of microscopic creatures that are actively and permanently building the structure. Structure is about physical properties. It's not about the available nutrients. Imo, understanding structure is central in achieving garden goals. Good drainage is a structural issue.
Arturo
Name: Bonnie
Texas
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RosesnTx
Aug 24, 2018 1:55 PM CST
Hampartsum that's very interesting what you are saying about structure to the soil and I'm very curious as to how do you add structure to potted plants?
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 24, 2018 3:22 PM CST

Moderator

Arturo, you make some good points, but you seem to be discussing soil that's dug up from the garden and transferred to a container. I doubt that this is being done much by our forum members. I think most, if not all, of us use commercial potting soil for our container plants, and it's specially formulated to have excellent drainage.
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Aug 24, 2018 6:39 PM CST
I'm delighted that this issue is being addressed. Some ( possibly very few) do dig soil from their gardens and believe that as it comes it keeps its structural properties. Well it doesn't. Good drainage is not the only property that one is searching in a soil. One is also searching to maintain the binding properties of organic matter as it slowly decomposes and dissolves with the rest of the inorganic components. Artificial substrates are that: artificial.Some may better than others. Almost all rely in the addition of chemical fertilizers to counterbalance the lack of biological activity in the soil. Is this necessarily bad? Not so if one is aware that inside the pot the substrate is not soil. Its something else: artificial substrate. Thus inside a container, the plant relies heavily on the adequate and judicious addition of all necessary nutrients plus water and also air for the roots. This way of container growing requires time and expense.
There's an alternative way : Using garden soil with generous ammounts of organic matter so that while it decomposes, the binding properties are created and used by the existing micro-organisms, re-building the minute waterways and air holes plus gradually releasing the needed nutrients that are adsorbed ( not absorbed) on the surface of the smallest particles normally clays, that occur in some proportion in any soil. In regards to roses I use fairly large grow bags. At least 20 gallons or more. I get my own soil and mix it up with horse manure at least 20% and watch how during the growing season the soil starts shrinking. Meanwhile the rose gets all it needs the first season, building an excellent root mass in the form of a soccer ball. I repeat the procedure later in fall adding more manure in the bottom of the planting hole... Yes I know I've read and heard that is not done ( I'm hearing screams :biggrin:) ...but I've been doing it successfuly for three years now...and keep adding manure on the sides of the hole and top it with at least 5" of dry leaves all around and atop the crown.
If instead I were to keep my rosebush in a container forever, season two I would add manure 5" thick on top and slightly mix it with the underlying soil. I also would add dry leaves as a top dressing and winter mulch. Horse manure is an amazing product. It is coarse and can be used even fresh with no danger. In my climate in summer manure is dry in about a week. Because it is coarse it is a slow release organic fertilizer. You'll be surprised to find earthworms inside the bags moving up and down the OM until it has dissappeared completely. By season three one would consider a larger pot and repot succesively until the size of the pot matches the size of the needs of the top growth. This is by using always natural own garden soil. No expensive store bought stuff... Are there other forms of organic matter? yes, leaf mould , other grass fed manures ( rabbit, lama, sheep, goat, chinchilla etc) and home made compost. One has to search which is easily available in the vicinity.
I hope that I've added a grain in the understanding of how soils operate. Thank you for your questions!
Arturo
Name: Bonnie
Texas
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RosesnTx
Aug 25, 2018 6:42 AM CST
Thumb of 2018-08-25/RosesnTx/5b9c93

Paul Neyron
This rose is new to my garden this year and so far I really like his big pink blooms. Paul has had some powdery mildew but shook it off and now has a little black spot but so far has over all done very well and I'm looking forward to watching him as he matures in the garden.
Name: Sara
Middle TN (Zone 7a)
Sedums Irises Cat Lover Region: Tennessee
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flukybloom
Aug 25, 2018 8:47 AM CST

Thumb of 2018-08-25/flukybloom/6e33d3

This pretty opened up yesterday. Don't know what kind, but it's a nice red spot in a boringly-landscaped area. I assume it's supposed to have such an open form, because it didn't stay closed for very long.
Follow your heart, but take your brain with you.

(floo-key-bloom) Fluky, adj., "obtained or achieved more by chance than skill"
Name: Asa

Bee Lover Garden Photography Region: Utah Garden Ideas: Master Level Photo Contest Winner: 2016
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evermorelawnless
Aug 25, 2018 12:46 PM CST
Something fun from this morning:

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Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, NY (Zone 6b)
Seed Starter Container Gardener Roses Bulbs I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Peonies
Clematis Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Region: New York
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Mike
Aug 25, 2018 12:52 PM CST
Those are some happy, busy bees!
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 26, 2018 7:48 PM CST
I am slowly learning the new camera ...

Purple Buttons

Thumb of 2018-08-27/RoseBlush1/b07133

Pinstripe

Thumb of 2018-08-27/RoseBlush1/a607a4

Double Delight



Kardinal 85



Firefighter ... I couldn't decide which photo I liked best








I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 26, 2018 11:12 PM CST

Moderator

The latest frog for Porkpal.

Thumb of 2018-08-27/zuzu/d71583

Name: Shyam
San Francisco, CA (Zone 10b)
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Rose_Guy1127
Aug 26, 2018 11:53 PM CST
@hampartsum:
The grow bags, otherwise known as smart pots, are amazing! I've planted about five roses in grow bags so far, and it's only a week half since I planted them, and they are growing well when compared to roses that I planted in pots. Yes, I record the growth rate of the roses. Also, using smart pots/grow bags helps in overcoming the root bound issue. The basic idea is that when the roots reach the side of the fabric container, it stops in place and initiates lateral or side-branching. This results in the better formation of the fibrous root mass, allowing more surface area for mineral and water absorption. I am going to start growing all my roses (minus the climber and standard tree) in the grow bags for the first half-year to encourage them to develop better root mass before transplanting them into the ground or into a bigger container that supports the top growth of the rose.

To others who are not aware of the grow bag/ smart pot, the product is available on Amazon:
http://a.co/d/0MfSs7U

In regards to the manure, I fed (dry pelleted) rabbit manure to the Lady of Shallot planted in the ground, and I kid not, the plant is growing like crazy! Apparently, rabbit manure has higher NPK (2/1/1) when compared to other manures. I am planning on trying to get access to horse manure because I plan on cross comparing the effect of both manures on the overall growth of a rose. Of course, there are other variables that have a direct correlation to the growth of a rose, but I believe under controlled experiment, it may be interesting to see which manure have a higher effect on the growth factor.

Article on rabbit manure: http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/b...

Lady of Shalott starting to bloom



[Last edited by Rose_Guy1127 - Aug 27, 2018 12:07 AM (+)]
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Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias
hampartsum
Aug 27, 2018 4:01 AM CST
@Rose_Guy 1127 Shyam, you also have to be watchful of not overstimulating your plants towards lush growth late in the season. Now, because you live in a rather mild climate, what is late in SF may be very different to what is late in NYC. Leafing needs to reach mature condition before first frosts. Otherwise all that new growth is destroyed. Mature leaves can pull along all winter which is probably how they will do in your place while in harsher winter conditions, bushes will go fully dormant and drop their leaves. It also depends on the type of rose.
Comparing manures is a wonderful experiment! I'm eager to hear your results! Coarser manures are closer to a slow release fertilizer while finely ground manures are faster. Each have its pros and cons.Perhaps you might want to try a mixture of both as well. Understanding how the different grass feeding animals process their food allows also to understand the end product. Horses eat coarse grass and only process it by mastication ( no chewing the cud) , then the not so well ground material is fermented in the colon (large intestine) where further break down of cellulose occurs. Rabbits have an incredibly long small intestine where also the cellulose is broken down ( they also do not chew cud). While the other major herbivores, cows, sheep, goats, deer yes have the four stomachs by which the food is regurgitated into the mouth for further chewing and mastication, before continuing to the end; thus the manure is finely ground and the OM is much more degraded. It has less structural properties when applied to soil building. All manures are useful but each has a different place in the garden cycle.
Long Island, NY (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
MargieNY
Aug 29, 2018 8:44 PM CST
My last photo for August 2018



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