Daylilies forum: Can't set pods thread...suggestions for success

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 8, 2018 7:16 AM CST
After reading another thread on here, it made me think that others are doing the same thing I am...trying to get certain plants to set a pod. There are a handful of plants in my garden that I have made repeated attempts to set pods on . I must have tried 50 times at least to set a pod on 'American Freedom', and finally I did. I tried and tried to set a pod on 'Panic In Detroit' and still have had no success. What did I use to set a pod on American Freedom? Yep, 'Panic In Detroit'.
So I would love for members here to post in this thread plants they are trying to set pods on, also plants that they had hard times with but finally were successful with.
What I would really like to see is people responding to others with their successful experiences with the same hard to set pod parents. How do you determine if a plant is pod sterile. Even with pollen, how do you know. Maybe a plant only makes good pollen on certain days?
I swear I have some plants that seem to have great looking pollen some days and none that looks good other days, is that possible?
I have seen this question pop up here and there about specific plants, but there has been no centralized place to ask about pod setters, so I thought I would give it a try with this post.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 8, 2018 7:25 AM CST
Other than the personal responses you will get to your post, one other way would be to do a parentage search in the AHS or NGA database. If a cultivar has no offspring, has only offspring as a pod parent, or has only offspring as a pollen parent then that gives you a clue. Obviously it only works with cultivars old enough to have been tried for breeding over a few years.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 8, 2018 8:06 AM CST
It is possible that a plant is not always fertile. There can be temperature sensitive mutations that cause sterility. However, the temperatures would be those when the gametes were developing, many weeks or possibly months before the flower blooms, not those of the same day. Temperatures the same day can also have effects. For example too high a temperature can have negative effects on pollen.
'American Freedom' has 29 registered offspring to 2017. Of those it was the pod parent for 10 and the pollen parent for 19. Although that suggests 'American Freedom' might be easier as a pollen parent, a statistical test indicates that the values are not extreme enough to be different from the expected 50:50.
Of the ten registrations as pod parent, three were by Smith in 2006, 2007 and 2008. The other seven were by several hybridizers beginning in 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016 (2). I have noticed previously that when a cultivar is a difficult pod parent it is its hybridizer who registers seedlings using it as a pod parent - I assume because the hybridizer will have the most plants to use as pod parents. In the case of 'American Freedom' that does not appear to be the case.
If 'American Freedom' is quite slow to open its flowers it may be that the pistils/(stigmas) are no longer receptive by the time the flower is open properly. In that case may be pollinating the flowers the night before, the morning before or perhaps even earlier might be more successful?
Have you tried potting it and moving it into the house or under shade for pollinating?
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Aug 8, 2018 8:07 AM (+)]
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
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bxncbx
Aug 8, 2018 8:10 AM CST
I'm game. I had the devil of a time setting pods on Francis of Assisi but now it will set pods. I tried for at least 2-3 years before it set it's first pod. Not a great pollen parent either for me.

I think I also finally succeeded in setting pods this year on Glittering Gown. Another one I've been trying for 3-4 years with no success. Mediocre pollen parent.

I'm inclined to think Malihini is pod sterile although I did try setting pods again this year. I've tried every late blooming tet pollen I have on it but nothing. Too soon to tell if it will be a bust this year also.

Gold Helmet seems to only want to set 1 or 2 pods per season. This has been consistent since I've had it. Doesn't matter which pollen is used (all pods harvested had different pollen parents). It's almost if it has a sweet spot right in the middle of blooming when it will set a couple of pods. Any time earlier or later and all pods abort.

It is true that some plants often produce little to no pollen/good pollen but have rare days when they do produce fluffy pollen. Little Red Warbler is like that for me. Haven't gotten any pods from it and so far it hasn't set pods with it's pollen but good pollen days are few and far between for me.

Those are the ones that I remember right off the top of my head. There are probably others once I look at my records. I use Alice Faye to test all tet pollen. It is so fertile I think another tet flower just needs to look at it and it will set a pod! Hilarious! For dips I use either Butterscotch Ruffles ( extra early to mid bloomer) or Double Gardenia (midseason to late bloomer).
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Aug 8, 2018 11:13 AM CST
Responding to Sue about searching for offspring of any given cultivar to verify if it is a good pod parent (or not)....absence of offspring is not necessarily an indication of pod infertility. When a hybridizer has a WOW WOW WOW parent, it is not uncommon for them to hold WOW WOW WOW back so that its hybridizing potential can be fully explored in their garden while the hybridizer has an exclusive on it. The offspring may be introduced long before WOW WOW WOW is even registered so parent information of the offspring would be a seedling number. I have been using some parents for more than 10 years prior to actually registering them with many offspring registered first because I'm still working with the plant as an unregistered seedling. So if I do register WOW WOW WOW, all those offspring I registered earlier will not show up in the data search. The reason a seedling such as this is held up for a long time is BECAUSE it is such a good pod parent.
[Last edited by Davi - Aug 8, 2018 12:42 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 8, 2018 11:56 AM CST
Wow, such great answers and responses. I have learned a lot already form just four posts.
I do check the databases for info on child plants, but I had a suspicion there was something going on with some of them and Davi really opened my eyes on that.
I realized that not nearly all attempts at crosses would be successful, I had not really thought about it taking several years of trying. I guess some plants are very picky about the circumstances affecting them setting pods. Now I know to just keep trying, or just move on. For some crosses I really had no need to set pods, but just wanted to see if I could on those stubborn plants.
So glad to have it confirmed that some plants just seem to have a limit on the pods they will set, I have a few that it seems like two or three pods are just all it will do in a season.
I really like the idea of having some selected very fertile dips and tets to run trials on. I use a NOID for dips, it makes the most beautiful large pods, I have yet to discover a preferred tet for testing purposes. I also know that 'Beautiful Edgings' seems to set a pod almost every time I have tried it with a dip, 'Victorian Princess' is also very easy to set pods on.
Another tet I have not been able to set even a single pod on is 'Mexican Sunrise', but it did not have a lot of blooms this season. Panic In Detroit on the other had has had it's best season ever and still no pods.

bxncbx,
So glad to hear you are finally getting pods after all those years of trying. I wish I had some suggestions for you to try with
'Malihini'.
I did try early mornings, late afternoons, midday with 'American Freedom' and I do have a pod now, but I don't know when the pollen took.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 8, 2018 12:14 PM CST
This is a great thread!

I tried for a couple of years to set a pod on Naomi Hope. I had no luck and never saw a bee pod on it, so thought it was pod infertile. The pollen is good, though. Then, wouldn't you know, this year it has a bee pod. So, there you go, the bees are better at pollinating that I am Hilarious!

Last year I tried pollinating Baby Blues the evening before the bloom opened, with the pistil protruding, and it worked, so I did the same this year, and got another pod.
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Aug 8, 2018 12:40 PM CST
Larry

I was not able to set a pod on PANIC IN DETROIT when I lived in a much cooler climate. I tried for several years on every single bloom.

Many times when I have not been able to set a pod here on one of my own introductions because our summers are so hot and dry, customers growing the same introduction in a cooler climate will often be able to set a pod. I send them hate mail.....they know who they are!!! 🤪
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Aug 8, 2018 12:53 PM CST
Valerie, you said, "with the pistil protruding". Is that when they look like they're sticking their tongue out at you? You can put pollen on it at that time, and it will work?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 8, 2018 1:02 PM CST
@Davi,
Thanks for that info. That is just the type of information this thread was intended for. So if 'Panic In Detroit' will stay blooming long enough for the weather to cool down, or if I catch it blooming early before the weather warms up next year I might have a chance?
@josiekid,
Yes, when you bloom looks like this Sticking tongue out
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Aug 8, 2018 2:22 PM CST
From my limited experience, I find that I have a harder time setting pods on daylilies that are not established. Some would set but they would be aborted. I also have noticed that I have better chance of success setting pods in in cooler weather. But if that's the case, how do hybridizers in the southern states manage to get so much success? Do they make the crosses in a climate controlled environment like a greenhouse?
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Aug 8, 2018 4:04 PM CST
Larry,
I don't believe PANIC IN DETROIT is pod fertile at all. You should probably be content to just use the pollen. I bought it when it was new and tried it every which way and could not pod it.

Karen,
Yes, southern growers often use greenhouses to start plants early in pots so that they can be finished with hybridizing by the time it is really hot outside. Many also use shade cloth in the garden to lower temps for the daylilies.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 8, 2018 5:25 PM CST
@Davi,
Thanks I misread your first post.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 8, 2018 6:03 PM CST
josieskid said:Valerie, you said, "with the pistil protruding". Is that when they look like they're sticking their tongue out at you? You can put pollen on it at that time, and it will work?


Thanks, Larry for answering. I was at the vet with my dog. Just for a check up, all is well Hurray!
@josieskid
Yes, the night before the bud opens, some cultivars have the pistol showing, as you said, sticking out their tongue. I put the pollen on then, especially good to try if it has been hard to set a pod when the bloom is open. You can always dab a bit more the next day, just to have two tries Hilarious!
With Baby Blues, I tried several times to set a pod and it never took, until I did it the night before. I didn't put pollen on the next morning that time. Pollinating the night before worked and I got 8 seeds and 5 seedlings from those seeds. I also did that same thing this year with a different pollen parent, and have a pod forming.
[Last edited by touchofsky - Aug 8, 2018 8:00 PM (+)]
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Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Aug 8, 2018 7:10 PM CST
Thank you, Larry and Valerie! This is good to know.
Name: Daniel Erdy
Catawba SC (Zone 7b)
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ediblelandscapingsc
Aug 8, 2018 7:49 PM CST
I think slight changes in ploidy is to blame for many crosses not taking.
http://heavenlygardens.com/PLa...
I think we will learn a lot more in the years to come and I'd be very interested in what Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Blue Jay Tapestry') ploidy test would revel. There are many tet conversions in it's ancestry and the only kids with blue jay tapestry as a pod parent are Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Desired Effect') and Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Say Can You See') The thing is both have pollen parents with many tet conversions in their ancestry also. Maybe Blue jay tap is leaning a little toward triploid and maybe Matthew Weldon and Tet. Colorful Etchings are also. Shrug!
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Name: Diana
Lincoln, NE (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Region: Nebraska Organic Gardener Dog Lover Bookworm
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ShakespearesGarden
Aug 8, 2018 9:06 PM CST
Smith Brothers absolutely would not set a pod this year until the very last bloom. I have others that I see all their little white tags waving in the wind and think "How did I set all of those on that poor plant?!" Ninja Storm is listed as pod and pollen fertile and I didn't get one pod set on it this year- and I don't think I got anything set from its pollen either. It was a brand new planting this spring. On the other hand, I had other new spring planted fans that bloomed and set pods. But, fertility in general, seems to be lower for many plants this summer than last. We had a late spring followed by a really warm May and June. July temps were more reasonable, but I had a bunch of pods and buds drop, even though I was watering every other day.

Here's a Q... It seems that pods that contain only one or two seeds ripen faster. Is it my imagination?



Arg! I guess I just don't know... Better luck next year right? Crossing Fingers!



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Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Aug 8, 2018 10:41 PM CST
My general problem is with setting pods on anything with a long pistil, so spidery and UF type things, basically. SEARS TOWER has been the only one that I have had some degree of success with, some years. Rolling my eyes.
A 'Premonition of Spring' - PCI time already?!
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Aug 9, 2018 2:44 AM CST
Some of the long pistiled ones are not ready for pollinating until much later in the day, so if I haven't had any luck pollinating when pollen is puffed around 10 am, I will start trying at noon or 2 pm, or even very late in the day or early evening....or if I really want a cross....all of the above.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 9, 2018 6:49 AM CST
ShakespearesGarden said:Here's a Q... It seems that pods that contain only one or two seeds ripen faster. Is it my imagination?

Did you that noticed with small and large pods, or could just the small size of the pod be the reason it would ripen faster. I can see that with more seeds in a pod it would take longer for the pod to fully ripen.
I have noticed that the pods set later in the year ripen much faster than the ones set at the early beginning of the year.

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