Cactus and Succulents forum→Are these the same species of Ferocactus?

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Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 2:07 PM CST
Ferocactus are not my expertise.

I've had these for a little under 2 years. Both of them came to me labeled Ferocactus latispinus.

I thought the smaller one might eventually grow into looking like the big one but it has always had a slightly different growth habit with different spines. Does this species vary this much? Or are they different species?

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Name: Stefan
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skopjecollection
Aug 12, 2018 2:26 PM CST
No, they are not. Latispinus is the one with thinner, pointy edge ribs. No certain idea what the second one is, but id start with marcodiscus or potsii.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 3:07 PM CST
Thank you. It's good to have a second person confirm what I thought--that they're not the same.

When I look at this page: http://www.llifle.com/Encyclop...

One of the "baby pictures" of Ferocactus potsii looks a lot like my plant.
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Name: Thijs van Soest
Tempe, AZ (Zone 9b)
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mcvansoest
Aug 12, 2018 3:32 PM CST
It is not potsii. Both your plants have some central spines that are hooking. Potsii does not have that.

I do not know for sure but I think both your plants can be latispinus. One has just already completed the transition from a juvenile to a more adult look. If you look at the potsii page you can see that the younger plants look decidedly different from the older presumably adult plants.

It is difficult to positively ID juvenile Ferocacti, which your smaller plant most certainly still is.
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Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 3:36 PM CST
Oh. So back to square one! lol

The larger plant was about the size of the second plant a year or so ago, and never looked like the smaller plant does now. I know this because I bought it specifically due to the heavy red spines. I wonder if there are more years (in age) between these two than it would seem.

The smaller one does not have well-defined ribs (yet, anyway) but it does have the beginnings of red spines at the top, which started this year.
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Name: Thijs van Soest
Tempe, AZ (Zone 9b)
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mcvansoest
Aug 12, 2018 3:55 PM CST
Just based on counting the number of spines, it looks like the younger plant has the right number and type of spines compared to your other plant. They are just underdeveloped which could be a question of environment, however there are some Ferocactus latispinus specimens with thinner spines than those that we all see on sale everywhere. Obviously most people like the thick/broad spined one a lot.

I had one that was growing in pretty much afternoon full sun here that never developed that distinct broad central spine, but in all other aspects was clearly F. latispinus. Unfortunately it bit the dust a few summers ago and I never really photographed or at least classified any photos I took under the F. latispinus entry in my photo database.
It is what it is!
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 4:03 PM CST
These two have had pretty similar care for the past 18 months or so. If I ever get purple flowers I guess I'll know for sure but that's probably a few more years down the road.
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Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
Aug 12, 2018 4:08 PM CST

Moderator

I have grown those from seed, and we saw a bunch of different forms of this plant in bot gardens in central Mexico. This is one of the few cacti I feel pretty familiar with.

I am guessing those 2 plants are simply 2 different forms. The first looks like a self-fertile plant that I have growing here, and the form I almost always see in cultivation.




The second looks like maybe a different form with narrower spines, maybe also younger. The red spines coming out the top look more substantial than the existing ones, but then a lot of the existing spines have apparently been cut back or trimmed, if you look at them carefully.

I have two versions of F. gracilis that are very different in appearance and I went through a period of suspicion before I came to accept that nature presented me with an excellent example of variation within a species.

Anyway, back to F. latispinus, here by way of illustration are pictures from the road. First, a softer colored flower. There are apparently also yellow-flowered plants, but I have never seen one.



And here is an orange-spined version loaded with fruit. The spines also can be a few different colors.

[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Aug 12, 2018 4:11 PM (+)]
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Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 4:12 PM CST
Thank you. This is very helpful.

Baja_Costero said:...a lot of the existing spines have apparently been cut back or trimmed, if you look at them carefully.


If I remember correctly, this was one of several plants whose tray fell off the shelf, hit the table, then hit the floor. So not quite "cut back" as much as "broken." :whistling:
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Name: Karen
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plantmanager
Aug 12, 2018 4:14 PM CST
All of these variations are interesting to see, but it sure makes positive ID's nearly impossible.
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Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 12, 2018 4:18 PM CST
There are species of Gymnocalycium which vary a lot within the same species, too. Some species can have flowers of four or five different colors and pretty different spine arrangements too.

This is part of the reason why some species of cacti can have scores of synonyms.
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[Last edited by Jai_Ganesha - Aug 12, 2018 4:20 PM (+)]
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Aug 12, 2018 10:27 PM CST
Ever considered the probability that the second is a hybrid? From cactus art, looked up on google under ferocactus hybrid gracilis x gatesii
http://www.cactus-art.biz/cata...
I also see a similar species called ferocactus recuvus.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 13, 2018 5:08 AM CST
I'd only gotten as far as "not the same" but I guess it could be a hybrid. Time will (or should) tell...
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Aug 13, 2018 5:20 AM CST
Youll find an ID eventually. Ive been growing ferocactus for years(most successful genus so far), and still dont know the exact ID of some of my oldest plants.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
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Jai_Ganesha
Aug 13, 2018 5:40 AM CST
These have been extremely easy for me so I don't see any particular reason why they shouldn't eventually reach flowering size. They're just not particularly fast-growing.
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Aug 13, 2018 6:11 AM CST
Ive yet to have a ferocactus reach flowering size though..... Parodias ,rebutias, and gymnocalcyiums have been easier, but not as durable...... Mammilarias, a mixed bunch. Echinopsis are tricky for overwintering..... So far, only ones reliable are schlumbergera, and "easter cactus" schlumbergera, both of which tend to croak eventually. Ive had epiphytes, namely rhipsalis, disocactus and lepisimium bloom, but it was mostly a one time thing(for some reason "wet " cacti hate me). Most success aside from ferocactus? Opuntia(duh,its the easiest to grow, humifusa is grown in the wild ), stenocereus(some species can be problematic like thurberii), pilosocereus(aside from spine injuries, no problems with this one), Pachycereus(think i mentioned a pringlei that has been a long time specimen, have marginatus too, seeds from schotii have beeng great), some with cereus that isnt mutated....I have that one e. grusooni that gets sunburned every year, and an ech. ingens/planthyacanthus type that is problem free unlike its sibling.....Im not gonna lie, if you want blooms, echeveria is the one id recommend. Most succulents are hard to get to bloom, that are more common. Maybe gasteria of the aloes and some haworthia, kalanchoe too,but thats fairly it.
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
Aug 13, 2018 6:13 AM CST
Any advice for cylindropuntia imbricata? Its unusually slow for me?

Potawatomi13
Aug 20, 2018 5:18 AM CST
cylindropuntia imbricata: They like full sun and can use a fair amount of H2O as long as soil does not stay wet. Personally I'd avoid anything called Cholla or cylindropuntia-particularly nasty barbed spines. For me anything in the prickly pear family just grow once a year in the spring when warm and sunny enough,
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Cactus and Succulents Orchids Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Bulbs Foliage Fan
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skopjecollection
Aug 20, 2018 5:36 AM CST
hahahaha......the spinier they are the more i like them. Still looking for a c.bigelovi .....And no, its not the sun or the water. Think i cant get their soil adequate for nutrition, or enable winter rest for more growth.....
[Last edited by skopjecollection - Aug 20, 2018 5:37 AM (+)]
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