Hello Al et. al.,

I have read this this thread as comprehensively as I can, but perhaps have missed a few points. My question for Al is related to the 5-1-1 as it relates to semi-dwarf citrus. I have an improved Meyer lemon that is doing well and has for some time in a 5-1-1 I made in Salt Lake City some years ago, at Al's recommendations. I have five more coming now and need to prepare for these, but lost and/or don't have access to the same products here now that I have moved back to the greatest state in the Union, North Carolina. I am going to ask a series of bulleted questions below in the hopes you can help clarify a few issues or misunderstandings I have. Any help you could give would be immensely appreciated.

1.) With respect to the pine bark, Al, I am confused on whether one wants fines in there or not? I have Daddy Pete's Soil Enhancement (image below) here which have smaller chunks, but lots of fines. My plan was to screen out the majority of fines under 3/8" and discard. OR do I want everything, including fines, under 3/8"? Assuming fines means the dust or dirt.

2.) Fertilizer, I've been using 20/20/20 every other watering with the lemon. Since the 5-1-1 does not retain much water, I generally fertilize in this manner all year round. Can one use the DynaPro for semi-dwarf citrus as well on a constant basis? I'm looking for consistency here. Fertilize as above or you recommend at varying times throughout the year.

3.) Perlite - You recommend course perlite or whatever you can find? I've seen Fox Farm have some chunky perlite and I've seen plant stores have really inconsistent size with almost dust in the bottom.

4.) Peat - Is Peat an absolute necessity or can one use a Cactus / Palm soil in its place?

@mcgeeoj I have made 5-1-1 and similar mixes many times with bark products that include the fines and they work fine. Any increase in the perched water table is going to be minimal, and I think it only becomes an issue with a shallow container combined with a deep-rooted plant.

When you say "Daddy Pete's Soil Enhancement" I assume that is a commercial product. Ask them if they nitrolize the soil or add fertilizer. Many times these products do. I use a wholesale bark soil amendment in California that has too much fertilizer added and any soil mix made with that only requires nitrogen for further growth, for at least the first year.

@pone31 thank you kindly for your reply. Yes, it is a commercial product here in NC and I recon I'll screen it and use anything around 1/4 - 3/8" and then the fines. The peat moss and perlite are an easy find anywhere here, but wondering about the size of perlite. Bigger better or screen out the dust? If you see the picture above, I'm just worried about too much "fines" (assuming that means the dust). Thoughts on that? The link to this product is below. Hopefully @tapla can help with the fertilizer question. Thank you both.

mcgeeoj said: @pone31 thank you kindly for your reply. Yes, it is a commercial product here in NC and I recon I'll screen it and use anything around 1/4 - 3/8" and then the fines. The peat moss and perlite are an easy find anywhere here, but wondering about the size of perlite. Bigger better or screen out the dust? If you see the picture above, I'm just worried about too much "fines" (assuming that means the dust). Thoughts on that? The link to this product is below. Hopefully @tapla can help with the fertilizer question. Thank you both.

5-1-1 mix is not gritty mix. 5-1-1 includes some fines. If you filter out all those fines, you are going to be watering twice as often, and for what reason? To save 1/4 inch of perched water table on the bottom of the pot...?

I use pumice rather than perlite. 1/4" is fine. I find that even 1/8" works well without much perched water. If you cannot get perlite you like, try Cherrystone #2 chicken grit, which is a crushed rock that is well washed and very well screened for size. Don't use #1 or #3 grit. In North Carolina you should be swimming in options for well-washed chicken grits. I wouldn't buy any rock that has fines. It's a major hassle to wash those out.

Thanks again @pone31 . Headed to look at pine bark now and get supplies. One last question, and I'll post a picture of my mix when done to see what you think, is about the lime. Sounds like for reactive time it should be wet when mixed, add lime, and then wait. Do we continue to water the mix over the two weeks or no? Any advice on this and the fertilizer with Foliage Pro that @tapla recommended? As it applies to citrus, use this all year round in the same increments since the soil will retain very little nutrients?

mcgeeoj said: Thanks again @pone31 . Headed to look at pine bark now and get supplies. One last question, and I'll post a picture of my mix when done to see what you think, is about the lime. Sounds like for reactive time it should be wet when mixed, add lime, and then wait. Do we continue to water the mix over the two weeks or no? Any advice on this and the fertilizer with Foliage Pro that @tapla recommended? As it applies to citrus, use this all year round in the same increments since the soil will retain very little nutrients?

I don't have much insight on Garden Lime. I have moved to buying a bark mix that is both nitrolized as well as pH-neutralized, so that I don't have to hassle with this.

@tapla is the fertilizer expert, but I think it might matter whether you are trying to encourage leaf growth or fruiting. If you have a sterile potting medium, Dyna-Pro is a great fertilizer that will encourage good overall growth. If you want to encourage plant health and fruiting more than leaf growth, I might come down on the nitrogen and get an NPK that is more like what "flowering" fertilizers use. If @tapla ever returns to this thread, what does he think would be the adverse consequences of using an NPK ratio more like 3-4-5 on a potted citrus? Dyna-Pro uses the 3-1-2 ratio (at higher concentration of 9-3-6) that stresses nitrogen for leaf growth.

Hi @pone31 - so made the 5-1-1 mix this weekend and it was both labor intensive and expensive lol. I have four semi-dwarf citrus trees coming in this week so I needed quite a bit of mix since I've got 14" pots coming in today as well. On top of locating and procuring all of these materials I also had to build two shaker trays (1/4" and 1/2") for the pine fines since I could not find an affordable option that was pre-screened and consistently sized.

As you can see in the images below I started out with the pines out of the bag. Lots of fines, lots of large pieces, and lots of 1/4" size and below. First off, I screened out the larger parts via the 1/2" screen whereby the fines and ideal sized pieces fell through. After completing this step, I moved to the 1/4" size and kept everything left behind (between 1/2" and 1/4"). The fines fell through (<1/4"). Appeared to be a ton of dust sized fines that I removed and set to the side. I realize that some of these fines are necessary to maintain moisture post-watering, but didn't want too much as to negate the point of putting this together (impeccable drainage). In order to accomplish this, I added 1/3" of the fines back into the 1/4" pieces. The result was 25 gallons of mix (five x five gallons buckets of mix).

The easiest part was adding a five gallon bucket of sphagnum peat moss and a five gallon bucket of coarse perlite that I sifted through a 1/8" colander I have in the house (wife not thrilled). This was just to get rid of the dust and keep the larger pieces. Laid this all on a tarp, added the lime (tablespoon per gallon) and then turned it over three or four times with a shovel and lightly wet it after each turn.

The result is below. Time will tell, but it is incredibly airy and when I squeeze a handful of this together it simply falls apart.

@mcgeeoj It looks great!

@pone31 I see you are up in San Jose so probably don't know about any bark suppliers down here in San Diego. For the past week or so, I've been going to all big box stores and small local nurseries trying to find pine bark to make 5-1-1 soil for our new container citrus trees to no avail. It seems no one in this area carries them. I'm left with either going with ReptiBark or fine fir bark that I've seen people recommend as substitute. Any recommendations on substitutes or where I should look at?

skarkouti said: @pone31 I see you are up in San Jose so probably don't know about any bark suppliers down here in San Diego. For the past week or so, I've been going to all big box stores and small local nurseries trying to find pine bark to make 5-1-1 soil for our new container citrus trees to no avail. It seems no one in this area carries them. I'm left with either going with ReptiBark or fine fir bark that I've seen people recommend as substitute. Any recommendations on substitutes or where I should look at?

How much soil do you need? If you can handle 1/2 cubic yard or more delivered by truck, call the local wholesale suppliers and see if they have a composted redwood bark product. Most of these will be nitrolized and pH neutralized as well.

skarkouti said: @pone31 I see you are up in San Jose so probably don't know about any bark suppliers down here in San Diego. For the past week or so, I've been going to all big box stores and small local nurseries trying to find pine bark to make 5-1-1 soil for our new container citrus trees to no avail. It seems no one in this area carries them. I'm left with either going with ReptiBark or fine fir bark that I've seen people recommend as substitute. Any recommendations on substitutes or where I should look at?

Check out Bonsai Jack for pine fines. If you only need one pots worth of 5/1/1 then Bonsai Jack would be a good option. I had five, so I had to mix my own in large quantities.

I mix my own potting soil. 4 parts compost, 2 parts peat, 1 part vermiculite, 1 part sand, and some small amount of lime.. It all goes through a 1/4" wire mesh that I rub into a large tub (to take out any gravel or hard bits) and that I can mix around with a trowel. Then it fills up a trash can and I am ready for the next year.