Plant ID forum: which ironweed? I give up...

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Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 18, 2012 9:39 AM CST
I cannot seem to figure out which ironweed this is.

Looking for help.

Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/ff87b8 Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/03a1de
Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/5b3e6c Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/9f5912
Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/a5591e Thumb of 2012-06-18/wildflowers/758b77
May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
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sandnsea2
Jun 18, 2012 10:31 AM CST
Vernonia baldwinii?
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 18, 2012 11:06 AM CST
Do you think so? That's where I originally put it in the plant files and then when I recently went to add a couple of pics, I thought my plant doesn't look like the other entries??

Here it is: Western Ironweed (Vernonia baldwinii)

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
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sandnsea2
Jun 18, 2012 12:05 PM CST
Looks like it, but bet the experts here can ID it for sure Christine. Smiling
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 18, 2012 1:02 PM CST
There looks to be two different plants?

Vernonia baldwinii looks to have more serrate leaves ..

http://www.illinoiswildflowers.info/prairie/plantx/baldwin_i...

http://www.missouriplants.com/Pinkalt/Vernonia_baldwinii_pag...

Vernonia missurica looks good ..

http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/bio406d/images/pics/ast/vernonia_m...

http://luirig.altervista.org/schedenam/fnam.php?taxon=Vernon...





Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 18, 2012 1:59 PM CST

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It's not Vernonia baldwinii as that species has recurved involucral bracts while the plant in the pictures has flat involucral bracts. It might be Vernonia missurica or Vernonia texana. I lean towards V. texana because V. missurica is supposed to have 30 to 60 florets per flower head and it looks like the ones in the picture have 15 to 20. It's really hard to count florets in a picture, though. Hilarious! The easiest way to count them is to pluck them off one by one.

I couldn't find many pictures of V. texana online, but here are a few:

http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subthumb.cfm?sub=51645
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 18, 2012 2:25 PM CST
I was going to suggest the one with the narrower foliage was V. texana but decided to leave it. I still think there's two different species, unless it's the same plant. Hilarious!

I found those photos on the forestryimages site, but the leaves look much broader than on other photos which should be correct..

http://www.wildflower.org/gallery/result.php?id_image=11492

The photo of V. texana on the next link looks like the narrow leaved one ..

http://src.sfasu.edu/~jvk/PineywoodsEcosystems/1_Uplands/07_...
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 19, 2012 6:07 PM CST
Yes, Janet, it is the same plant. LOL! But I know what you mean - I had to go out and look at my plant to be sure!!! and the leaves look so different at the top, than at the bottom!
The leaves of V. baldwinii do seem too serated. It might be V. missourica? still not sure.

A pic of the leaves all from one plant -
Thumb of 2012-06-20/wildflowers/88ece4

BUT.... I went for a drive today and saw LOTS of ironweed growing in pastures along our county road. And many of the plants were over four feet tall, with big blooming tops. Wonder if its the same one? I also wonder if my ironweed isn't growing as tall and has less blooms since it is growing beneath the trees, instead of full sun?

I took a few of pics from the road.
Thumb of 2012-06-19/wildflowers/8a3d97 Thumb of 2012-06-20/wildflowers/329ecb
Thumb of 2012-06-20/wildflowers/200681

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 19, 2012 7:11 PM CST
The leaf serration does look to be more like V. missourica, but so do they look like V. texana on the forestryimages site! I wonder if that is correct, the one with missourica is an education site.

Now, those photos along the country road are probably of a different species! The closest shot shows close serration on the leaves. Hilarious!

On the USDA site V. texana looks a bit sparse.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VETE3

Ha! Are the leaves very hairy underneath?

http://floraofohio.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/missouri-ironweed-...

I'll see what else I can find tomorrow, it's late.
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 20, 2012 12:52 PM CST
Thank you all for all the help here!!

Janet, ya know, that was another thing I was looking at, my plant doesn't seem hairy at all. I just went out and looked again, not very hairy. The top of the leaves have a sandpapery feel. The bottom more smooth.

This is the opposite side of the leaves (may need to get a clearer pic, though).
Thumb of 2012-06-20/wildflowers/1b8add

but it's part of the reason I was having such a hard time figuring this one out from the start. Here's the stem. it has very little hair.
Thumb of 2012-06-20/wildflowers/c88aa3

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
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sandnsea2
Jun 20, 2012 2:34 PM CST
The USDA says this one is not in Texas, but in New Mexico, which may be near where you are in North Texas.(not sure if you are in East or West Texas)

It looks a little like yours and the ones you saw growing wild.
Vernonia novaboracensis
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VENO
[Last edited by sandnsea2 - Jun 20, 2012 2:49 PM (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 20, 2012 2:46 PM CST
I'm beginning to think this is impossible to say which it is Christine, there's three species crosses in TX but I can't find any images.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VERNO

You could try counting the florets as Kent suggested, but we don't know what the others are like unless Kent has a description of them.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VERNO
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 20, 2012 2:52 PM CST
Vernonia novaboracensis is late summer flowering?

http://www.avantgardensne.com/catalog/product.cgi/4/249/3344...

http://www.wildflower.org/gallery/result.php?id_image=19248

It has very serrate leaf edges, and:

Flowering time: August to October

http://www.ct-botanical-society.org/galleries/vernonianove.h...
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Jun 20, 2012 2:53 PM (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jun 20, 2012 2:55 PM CST
Ironweed, Vernonia texana, is another sign of impending autumn.

http://botany.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/LCP/LCP11A.HTML
Name: Christine
North East Texas (Zone 7b)
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wildflowers
Jun 20, 2012 3:33 PM CST
At this point, I think I will try to contact our local county extention, they may have resources for native wildflowers? I'll look in to it and give it a try.... find out if there's someplace I can take a plant and they can help me identify it!

Wow... I'm just imagining if they do have such a thing LOL! How great that would be! I will let you know how it goes. In the meantime, should I leave my pics on V. baldwinii or remove them completely?

May your life be like a wildflower, growing freely in the beauty and joy of each day --Native American Proverb

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Jun 20, 2012 3:51 PM CST
I think you would be lucky if your county extention could ID it for you, but wonders never cease to exist. Hilarious! A dept. at a university may be better if you can find one?

I can't answer whether you should remove your pics from baldwinii, maybe you could wait until you find out more, if you can?
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
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sandnsea2
Jun 20, 2012 4:25 PM CST
Christine, the Master Gardeners have a Hotline and they can help you, I believe.
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Forum moderator
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KentPfeiffer
Jun 20, 2012 6:36 PM CST

Moderator

Thanks for the pictures of the leaves Christine, especially the under sides. They pretty much eliminate Vernonia missurica from consideration.

It can't be Vernonia noveboracensis because one of the defining characteristics of that species is its linear involucral bracts. That doesn't match your plants.

I'm not really familiar with Vernonia texana so can't definitively say that is what it is, but there aren't a lot of other reasonable possibilities at this point.

[Last edited by KentPfeiffer - Jun 20, 2012 7:32 PM (+)]
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
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Horntoad
Jun 20, 2012 8:51 PM CST
JRsbugs said:I'm beginning to think this is impossible to say which it is Christine, there's three species crosses in TX but I can't find any images.

The crosses are what's giving me problems identifying the one I have growing here. Vernonia ×illinoensis us the only species of ironweed recorded as growing in my county, but I can't find any photos are description to verify that it is the one I have. There are other species recorded in bordering counties and I know plants don't always pay attention to maps.
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
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JRsbugs
Jun 21, 2012 5:37 AM CST
I found some history to the naming of Vernonia ×illinoensis, it looks to be an impossible task!

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4032813?uid=3738032&ui...

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