Daylilies forum: Rust Database?

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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Jun 24, 2012 6:10 AM CST
ATP's inclusion of a search option for rust resistance or susceptibility seems to be unique, and this builds a lot of trust and admiration ... in an effort to add something useful to such a great site and super members, I'd like to start working on slowing adding to the handful of DL varieties in the database that have been proposed as being less or more resistant. Rather than reinvent the wheel, tough, I thought it best to check with more knowledgeable folks to see if there is already a central database or list that is kept accessible on the web? I can see that Gulf Coast Daylily Society of Southeast Texas and Texas A&M have done some very good work, and there is a lot of in-garden reporting going on informally, but I haven't been able to find anywhere else like ATP to do a search and get an up-to-date collective list.

If there is such a list, it would be great to hear about it (a search through the forum's posts does not reveal one being identified). Tree mail is fine, if you prefer not to post publicly on the subject. The more you love a plant/flower, the more you tend to shepherd it ... but it is not always a comfortable or easy road to travel. Rolling my eyes.
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Jun 24, 2012 11:21 AM CST
I have seen a few lists, but they are usually just repeats of each other. Here's 2 that I know of
Daylily Rust Survey
http://www.daylilyrust.org/survey.html
And http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/ho...

I'm not sure how recent the first has been updated. The problem with there being a list of less or more resistant is it takes certain conditions for rust to show it's ugly head and those climate conditions can change from year to year in areas. Just like I've read people say that when there is more tropical storm/hurricane activity they see more rust in their gardens down south or in areas that get the winds and such. John Peat even commented that when he came back to South Florida after so many months away he figured he'd have a really bad outbreak of rust, but he had none to his amazement.
I used to have some of the daylilies that, on any list I've seen, is highly susceptible to rust and here in the rust belt of the world never showed one sign of rust and that was without spraying them.
Here it's kind of hard to know what is and what isn't less or more resistant in my gardens because we HAVE to spray for rust and keep it out of our gardens in order to sell daylilies.
2 years ago when I first got into daylilies and got rust everything I read said that rust couldn't survive or show up when temps get above a certain degrees. Well, I beg to differ on that because my rust showed up when it was 99 and above degrees.
People who overhead water versus soaker hoses generally see more rust from what I've read.
There is a person here who said they had no rust last year (they did not spray) but 5 miles down the road at the place that these daylilies came from had rust when not spraying.

I guess my point is it's really hard to say who should go on the list or not because of so many variables and that's probably why there is no extensive list available.
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[Last edited by tink3472 - Jun 24, 2012 11:58 AM (+)]
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jun 24, 2012 11:56 AM CST
Oh I meant to say

I like the idea that the rust info is included in the daylily data however IMHO I don't see that it is reliable info. I say this because if I wanted to add this piece of info to a certain daylily then it's just my view of how it is. I could put in there that, for example, Pardon Me is rust resistant when in a lot of other people's gardens it could be susceptible. I use PM as an example because it has never had rust in my garden, however, it is said to be highly susceptible on lists I've seen.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 24, 2012 12:00 PM CST
That's an awesome full-summary of rust, thanks! I agree its best to take all survey information with a grain of salt, and with an eye toward _keeping_ all those that survey as rust-suseptible within the active gene pool (used for crosses, especially if one parent is believed to be resistant and might add strength), especially since it seems that rust does not usually destroy the plant. I also agree that the data is more helpful in regards to those that are reporting rust, rather than those who report 'resistant' so that is another variable to support the good practice of not eliminating a potential parent based on rust surveys, but only using survey data to possibly guide choices when/if there seems to be a common problem among offspring.

I'm thinking of fuchsias which also have rust and thrips, but also suffer now from burrowing mites (often devastates the plant). They've made real steps toward using survey data to cross in more resistance against the mites, and maybe that also could be of some use with rust and thrips, is such info were ever gathered...

Thanks so much for the Texas A&M link, I'd seen it referenced but had not found it! Thumbs up

It also looks like the daylily rust survey is ongoing, for anyone who can help by reporting or updating rust found on plants in their garden:

http://www.daylilyrust.org/survey.html (see ElizabeteRutens post below)
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 25, 2012 5:11 AM (+)]
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Name: Maryl
Oklahoma (Zone 7a)
Cat Lover Roses Daylilies Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents
Region: Oklahoma Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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Maryl
Jun 24, 2012 2:53 PM CST
As a rosarian, may I be so bold as to say that when it comes to blackspot on roses the same conversation has been had. The sellers of roses of course would seldom report a problem, but now there is a concensus of opinion among rose growers that reporting your problem with Blackspot, in literature, or forums, or lists is important information that consumers need to have. Despite all the ifs ands and buts involving regionalism, it is still helpful to know in advance that others may have experienced heavy to moderate infestations of any disease...Because I had never had rust in my garden before, I didn't pay attention to the caveat in Maryotts blurb about Texas Heat Wave rusting. When it arrived and began rusting and spreading it around to some of my other apparently susceptible daylilies I sat up and took notice. If Bill as the hybridizer is honest enough to report the problem, why shouldn't we have a data base that reports other growers experience? I'm sure ALL hybridizers are as honest as Bill, but perhaps a data base will reflect more experience then what's just in a hybridizer's local region. The hybridizers could benefit from the information as well by incorporating it into their breeding programs and producing healthier plants. And after all, isn't that what we all want?.......Maryl
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Jun 24, 2012 6:01 PM CST
I agree we need a data base with the info, it needs to be one that everyone can add to not just one person like on the data of each cultivar in our data base. Maybe Dave could figure out a way to add something to each cultivars data that would allow each of us to add our rust review and it keeps a running total on both resistant and susceptable. I'm not sure how that would work, but if it can be done then Dave could figure it out.
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Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover Plays in the sandbox
Butterflies Region: Texas I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member Annuals Garden Sages
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lovemyhouse
Jun 24, 2012 6:07 PM CST
I agree
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 24, 2012 7:40 PM CST
perhaps a simple counter for reporting a rust experience with a particular DL, or even just using the comments section to mention it? i feel confident that texas a&m felt the rust survey data were satisfactory at only 5 reports or more, such as with 'always afternoon,' which logged 2 bad rust, 2 poor rust, 1 good rust and 0 excellent rust experiences, and is listed on on the a&m site as "susceptible." i'm not sure if the survey was compiled by the noted All-American Daylily Selection Council (AADSC), or in tandem with the University of Georgia (also mentioned), but it seems there is clearly interest in using the information to provide additional tools to hybridizers and daylily lovers alike.

i'll post a question to the database forum, perhaps including thrips (if fuchsia mites can be resisted, maybe so can thrips?) ... i also follow Maryl's practical experience whenever possible. I'm happy to spend what plant budget i have on a hybridizer who is open about possible or even expected problems. it means i can be part of the process of helping to monitor, enjoy in my garden, and supply information that will ensure a healthier future for the plants i love. i'd heard many wonderful comments about maryotts before, without getting a strong enough curiosity to make me check them out ... now i will, and i hope they might have something in DLs that i am looking for - i'm putting them on my personal preferred hybridizers list.

kudos to them, and other hybridizers like Michele and many on ATP, who bring their smarts to the table in such a good endeavor. Group hug
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 24, 2012 7:40 PM (+)]
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 24, 2012 9:37 PM CST
Here's an update on my question to the database forum, based on Michele's great idea about generating a running total option for reporting data in ATP's plant database:

A member named Monica (ID: krancmm) replied with a similar request she made through the tomato database:

"krancmm said:could there be a section under the above specialized fields for Personal Experience rating, rather like a poll, also checkboxes, with a table/spreadsheet look?

Dave's Response: I love the idea and I think it's probably going to have to become my latest "Biggest item on my wishlist" but for now the database has zero support for something like that. Databox fields are programmed to be fixed to a single value. We can't currently have it where multiple users can select different values of the same item and have those differing values all appear. It's an "either or" kind of thing. Person "A" says something and if Person B wants to change it, it gets changed.

But having this feature would be an incredibly useful addition to the database. It's going to go on my wishlist.

This concept could be used in innumerable ways."

So, for now, I guess its a start to input resistant/susceptible results from external surveys and reports, using the notes section if one wants to record an experience, and looking to the future with anticipation for Dave's new-wish feature. Hurray!
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
[Last edited by chalyse - Jun 25, 2012 5:11 AM (+)]
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Name: Elizabete Rutens
(Zone 10b)
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ElizabeteRutens
Jun 25, 2012 1:22 AM CST
Hi, everyone,

Thanks, Tina and Michele, for bringing up the topic of daylily rust! It’s important, though not enough attention has been paid to it recently on the various e-forums. (I did notice, in passing, that elsewhere AHS’s president Julie Covington did mention recently that AHS has a rust project in the works.)

Tina, unless you or someone else has experience to the contrary, I believe that the Daylilyrust.org Survey is no longer on-going; I tried again this evening and got the same error message as I did two+ months ago. I reported it then and from the responses I read, I don’t believe that anyone is collecting additional information. (“Internal Server Error A server error has occured while your survey response was being recorded. Please use your browser's back button and resubmit your survey. If this problem continues, please contact webmaster@daylilyrust.org to report the problem.”)

Having said that, I find the current Rust Survey results extremely useful, especially if someone is seeking information about which parents and grandparents et al to avoid when making hybridizing decisions. (Of course, you do have to come up with a decision grid to determine how much of a threat any cultivar presents.) From my limited knowledge, I do tend to agree with Michele, though, that rust *resistance* only means that a daylily hasn’t been exposed to environmental conditions that might induce rust in the future. Even so, when comparing the survey’s results to anecdotal info (esp. on GardenWeb, but also from Oz participants of mydaylilies.com), there clearly are fairly widely used daylilies in the early-mid 2000’s that should be avoided in a cultivar’s immediate parentage.

Anyone who is hybridizing for rust resistance, should also consider signing up for Sue Bergeron’s Rust Forum (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/daylilyrust/). Although the forum isn’t very active now, the archives are filled with a *great* deal of useful information. It actually backs up what appears on the Rust Survey, as well as the anecdotal accounts on GardenWeb and elsewhere. I informally tracked a lot of this via an Excel file, and although some people participated in all three+ sources, there was enough input from the Rust forum participants who didn’t participate elsewhere to confirm initial conclusions about extreme rust susceptibility.

Wishing everyone a rust-free daylily season! : )

Elizabete
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 25, 2012 4:40 AM CST
Elizabete, your background, historical and multi-source information is such a wonderful thing to share - thanks so much! And, thanks for alerting everyone to the survey that is no longer actively intaking data, even though the form appears to be active.

Wonderful news that AHS has a project in the works; and perhaps now we can view the ATP database as a repository for all the partial-DL-list results that come out over time.

I too am already awed and encouraged by the number of identified rust-resistant DL's out there, and even though you and Michele are right that in some cases 'rust resistant' can and may sort out to be 'not yet introduced to rust conditions' they may still be great sources for people to work with until the point that they are shown to be rust susceptible. And, those that are standing the test of time include both diploid and tetraploid - quite a few for hybridizers to explore and report on further. Thumbs up
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Name: Elizabete Rutens
(Zone 10b)
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ElizabeteRutens
Jun 25, 2012 6:35 AM CST
Hello, again,

Tina, I am quite certain that I can’t possibly suggest sources for ‘rust-resistant’ daylilies. I truly am not sure that such exist, and am very sorry if I gave you that impression.

As I wrote, there are however daylilies “that should be avoided in a cultivar’s immediate parentage” if rust is a concern. In other words, it would be best if they aren’t parents or grandparents (or perhaps great-grandparents? I certainly don’t know how far back a hybridizer needs to determine this) in a cultivar’s gene heritage, when a cross is being planned. Since hybridizers’ commercial interests are involved, I won’t ever name them on a public forum.

In my previous post I mentioned numerous sources for more detailed information.

The results of the Daylily Rust survey are key: http://www.daylilyrust.org/survey.html

The archives of Sue Bergeron’s Rust Forum (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/daylilyrust/) provides additional invaluable information.

Finally, using a Google search on ‘daylily rust GardenWeb’ will also provide anecdotal information that supports both the Daylily Rust Survey, as well as the Rust Forum.

Happy gardening and hybridizing! : )

Elizabete
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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chalyse
Jun 25, 2012 7:25 AM CST
Thanks, Elizabete! I should have said "shows rust resistance' (per surveys/reports) as that is the focus of efforts to identify useful DL series and does not denote any 'guarantee.' The uncomfortable part of shepherding any living and domesticated (sold) plant or animal is that those who sell are sensitive to having variety name reports made known, as you said, some may rely on income that depends on a level of confidence in the health of their 'goods.'

On the other hand, it can be very expensive and counter-business-productive to find oneself needing to frequently replace, refund, or repair customer relations when a commodity continues to disappoint or deflect return-purchasers, especially if the product has previously been a problem for other consumers. (sorry, i have a bit of law school taken, and if previous indicators show that plant-x has not performed well, and sellers continue to profit from it at buyer's (sometimes great) expense ... there may be some issue regarding profit-making in that manner).

The upside comes in when sellers put forth a good faith effort to maintain the vitality of their genetically produced (and hybridizer-choreographed) live goods, and educate buyers on how to make informed purchases and provide best care. Such a good seller-buyer experience can only be strengthened by open disclosure of plant performance if reported against its peers when impacted in a shared garden. And, with an open database like ATP, if and when a DL that 'shows susceptibility' is found over time to be more resistant than originally thought, it is easy for any member to make a change. True for all plants, not just DLs.

After initially working through the daylilyrust.org list it is very encouraging to see how many have already been shown to be resistant, both diploid and tetraploid, dormant to evergreen, all colors and form, tiny to large, and so on. There is a great resource there, and i applaud the 'naming of variety names' by DR.org, AHS, ATP, Texas A&M, U of Georgia, leaders in the commercial community and even general hobbyists, and on and on ... Hurray! Hurray! Hurray! ... after all, they are only elevating the reports of those who most care about DLs, hobbyists and hybridizers alike.

... i guess i'm a bit surprised when a hybridizer doesn't endorse such proven methods for identifying, and keeping viable, those DLs that show resistance amongst their peers... when suntory stepped in to the fuchsia arena, after the great blight that tore US fuchsia societies apart when the gall mite arrived, they quickly identified a super-resistant strain. unfortunately, those previously active independent hybridizers are still struggling to backpedal ... after suntory went on to financially benefit by patenting, rendering sterile, and selling their resistant fuchsias through higher end distributors.

who knows ... it may be, in the end, hybridizers who become the most interested parties in ensuring the healthy future of their source of income, and of the lines they have lovingly created for the world to enjoy Group hug

6/26/12

UPDATED - To Track Data Origin and Procedure

There is a wealth of academic study, financially supported in part by the AHS and others, easily available on the internet that cover thousands of individual daylily. The standard of practice among those controlled experiments has been to directly innoculate (infect) the cultivar and observe and record its performance over multiple trials and tests before determining its resistance or susceptibility.

An especially good article from the University of Georgia, specifically addressing how hybridizers can utilize this data to strengthen their practices, was published in the scientifically peer-reviewed journal Horticular Science, Vol. 38(6), October 2003, and can be found at:

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/38/6/1137.full.p...

An interesting article that may suggest the use of diluted dishwashing soap as a very effective means for informally controlling rust is at (see table on page 52):

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~thsiang/pubs/pdf/04daylilyrust.pdf

Other academic sources for updates to the ATP Daylily Database for Rust Resistance/Susceptibility:

http://www.daylilyrust.org/survey_results.html
http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/factsheets/daylilyrust.pdf
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/04-089.htm#v...
http://www.maine.gov/agriculture/pesticides/gotpests/disease...
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/38/6/1137.full.p...
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/40/4/1040.3.shor...
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~thsiang/pubs/pdf/04daylilyrust.pdf
http://turf.uark.edu/research/research%20series/494%20%28200...
http://massnrc.org/pests/linkeddocuments/pestalerts/daylilyr...
http://daylilies.uaex.edu/ (default sort by cultivar)
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/19125/PDF

I will continue to update as more data is entered. :}
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

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[Last edited by chalyse - Jul 2, 2012 10:58 AM (+)]
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