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Dec 30, 2019 1:21 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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This is to all agave growers on this forum, could you be so kind to teach on species like potatorum , titanota , parryii and the like?
Thanks in advance...
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Dec 30, 2019 1:28 PM CST
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Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Here is a 2016 thread on the subject with some pictures.

The thread "Agaves that don't get huge" in Cactus and Succulents forum
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Dec 30, 2019 1:32 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Wild Plant Hunter Plumerias Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cactus and Succulents Sempervivums Bromeliad
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Its a bit helpful yes, but its not what was looking for. When it comes to hybrids and cultivars, now im more confused thane ever...
At least i learned about how to tell apart stricta from geminiflora. And learned that a.decipens existed, which i find interesting.
Last edited by skopjecollection Dec 30, 2019 1:32 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 30, 2019 1:54 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Modifying slightly from Greg Starr's excellent agave book...

very small: albopilosa, isthmensis, multifilifera "Cardos Compacta", parviflora, polianthiflora, "Shoji Rajin" & related, toumeyana v. bella, utahensis

small: "Blue Glow", bracteosa, colorata, deserti, filifera, geminiflora, guadalajarana, horrida, isthmensis, "Kissho Kan" & related cultivars, macroacantha, mitis/celsii, nickelsiae aka ferdi-reg., ocahui, palmeri, parrasana, parryi varieties, pelona, petrophila, potatorum, "Royal Spine", schidigera, striata, stricta, titanota, toumeyana, vic-reg. compacta

Which agaves are you curious about? Identification or cultivation? Are you wanting to grow them yourself?
Last edited by Baja_Costero Dec 30, 2019 1:58 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 30, 2019 1:58 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Wild Plant Hunter Plumerias Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Cactus and Succulents Sempervivums Bromeliad
Adeniums Bookworm Sedums Tropicals Fruit Growers Foliage Fan
IDs of course. I cannot do cultivation....for now. Smiling
Last edited by skopjecollection Dec 30, 2019 1:58 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 30, 2019 5:55 PM CST
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Name: Baja
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Okay, I hope @mcvansoest weighs in here if he can. I would of course appreciate corrections where appropriate. For now here's a few nuggets relating to identification. Again, I would refer you to a helpful section in Starr's book called "Comparing lookalikes" with images and details.

These are the small to medium agaves that tend to get confused in my experience, and it's not always straightforward to distinguish them.

1. isthmensis, potatorum, guadalajarana
2. parviflora, polianthiflora, toumeyana v. bella
3. vic-reg., nickelsiae, and there's a new species in that group I can't remember off hand
4. schidigera, filifera, multifilifera, geminiflora
5. striata, stricta, geminiflora, petrophila
6. parryi, parrasana, havardiana
7. some marginatae (lecheguilla, univittata, funkiana, etc.)

Crudely labeled this way:
1 butterfly agaves
2. small, dark green, shredding margins
3. the royal agaves, with great leaf markings
4. longer leafed shredders
5. hedgehogs (long skinny leaves)
6. blue-green artichoke-ish plants
7. related plants, some used for fiber, which tend to vary and have intermediate forms

Resolving them might work like this:
1a vs. 1b isthmensis is smaller and offsets, potatorum is larger and more likely to be solitary
1c guadalajarana develops pretty distinctive spines when it's all grown up, but younger plants can be tricky to tell from the others

And I would add a caution about three things:
1. Potted plants may look very different from plants in the ground, especially mature plants. This effect is less evident with smaller plants where pot size is not limiting.
2. Very young plants are extremely hard to identify, pretty much only through experience.
3. The plants in cultivation include some very odd variants which are not typical of plants in nature, so habitat photos will only get you so far in identifying cultivated plants, and vice versa. Applying a Latin name to many dwarf agave cultivars is a matter of guesswork.
Last edited by Baja_Costero Dec 30, 2019 6:05 PM Icon for preview
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Dec 30, 2019 9:01 PM CST
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Name: Thijs van Soest
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This is a huge ask. Baja has made a valiant effort but the question is rather all encompassing in terms of getting a complete answer.

For this kind of stuff you really need to find a way to get your hands on the Agave 'bible' by H. S. Gentry, just to get the basics of how Agaves are classified down once you have that You will have some basic info that will help you get to a general ID for what an Agave may be using a relatively small number of obvious characteristics, but after that things can get hard because since Gentry's work things have progressed. So, in addition you'd need to look at books like Greg Starr's, like Baja suggests, which provides an update on some of the information in 'The Agaves of Continental North America' by Gentry, but even those still leave lots of info to be gathered from scientific publications as a lot of these 'species' or groups of species are still undergoing refinement/changes. Agave potatorum now has been split in at least two to A. potatorum and A. nussaviorum (spelling), On top of that you may need to find ways to get your hands on PDFs of scientific publications where certain older Agave species have been redefined, and/or new species have been described. This can be hard as a lot of those publications are not open access.

A. titanota is a huge mess because of what a number of large Agave sellers have put on the market which were a best hybrids of A. titanota but generally worse: plants that have recently been described as a completely separate species (Agave oteroi). However, in a way true Agave titanota is actually not that hard to recognize once you have seen a few good pictures of the real deal (Agaveville can help with that).

For me some of the good sources of information are Agaveville, which has a reasonably accurate and up to date photo gallery of a large number of the Agave species out there. Then there is Agavaceae.com, a very complete in terms of species website, but where the individual entries can be incomplete. However, on that site you can at least find references to when the plant was described and where the description can be found.

There is a french? botanist who recent brought out a large book where he essential tried to update Gentry's work, but not everyone is very happy with it. I forget his name, but he maintains a website with 'adventurer/adventures' as part of the title. For a while the publication was accessible on the internet, but I have lost the link to the website.

Aside from getting a handle on what the plant is supposed to look like there is the issue of habitat pictures vs. cultured plants, which gets worse as in the trade we often get to see specific selections that have been chosen for propagation and production for the market based on very specific characteristics that may or may not represent the actual species very well and then there are the hybrids, there are many places that sell quite a few Agaves to the public, but with an inventory that is almost completely made up of hybrids and named hybrids cultivars. Nothing wrong with that, but once plants like that become more widely available name tags get lost, switched or things just get misidentified.
On top of all that there is the issue of young vs. mature plants, Many Agaves can look very very similar when young especially when grown out of ideal conditions.

Had I read Baja's last message completely I would have noticed that he already mentioned some of the stuff I bring up above.

If you are specifically interested in the Agaves of Arizona there is a new book out by Ron Parker (Chasing Centuries) which also addresses the interesting link of a number of Agaves found in the wild in Arizona to the native people who lived here before Europeans arrives. Ron has also seen most of the Agave parryi habitat in the SW US (he has not forayed much into Mexico) and while some of the variations/subspecies are quite distinct where they have originally been described, the three AZ species of Agave parryi (parryi, couesii, and huachucensis are generally characterized by large areas where plants look very intermediate. So rather than having three ultra distinct subspecies, the subspecies tend to represent the extremes of variation based on growing conditions and possibly some genetics with regards to exposure to gene pools from some other Agave species present in AZ. Interestingly the very distinct A. parryi v. huachucensis plants that you can see pictures of represent a genetically distinct but very uniform population that was probably used in cultivation and derives its distinctness from that, whereas the 'wild' population is more variable in appearance and genetics.

Anyway we can go on and on when it comes to the nitty gritty.
It is what it is!
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Dec 31, 2019 1:24 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
Cactus and Succulents Seed Starter Xeriscape Container Gardener Hummingbirder Native Plants and Wildflowers
Garden Photography Region: Mexico Plant Identifier Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Level 2
On top of those recommendations I would include the book by Mary & Gary Irish on agaves and related plants, and there's a second edition of Urs Eggli's book on succulent monocotyledons coming out in 2020.
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