Daylilies forum: Polymerous Daylilies

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Name: Bobby
Wake Forest, North Carolina (Zone 7b)
Leading the Polymerous Revolution!!
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DayliliesofNC
Sep 22, 2012 10:13 PM CST
Does AHS know that there are major differences between polymerous daylilies and doubles? Let me explain why I even have to ask this ridiculous question. The botanical term "polymerous" refers to flowers that are syntepalous, i.e., those that have four or more segments in the petal and sepal whorls that are joined at the base, forming the perianth tube in daylilies.

It is commonly perceived that the two basic types of doubles are petaloid and layered types. The petaloid types form "false petals", referred to as petaloids, which is just petal type material growing along the stamens. These petaloids are not true segments of additional petal or sepal. Actually, these petaloid doubles are really single blooms with the outgrowth of material on the stamens giving the appearance of a double daylily. I see these petaloid types as singles with fluffy stuff in the middle.

The layered doubles are completely different. Here, you actually have the addition of another whorl of petals/sepals, and the whorls are stacked upon themselves. Therein lies the major difference between doubles and polymerous daylilies. In polymerous daylilies extra true segments are added to the existing petal and sepal whirls and joined at the base, forming the perianth tube. In layered doubles the additional petals/sepals are formed in a new separate whorl and stacked upon the existing whorls. The petaloid doubles are single blooms with petal-type growth on the stamens.

Amazingly, AHS groups polymerous daylilies with doubles for the purpose of exhibitions. If you consider each major characteristic that I just described regarding polymerous daylilies, layered doubles, and petaloid doubles then how can the leading scientific and educational authority on Hemerocallis group these together in the same category for exhibition purposes?

It does not stop there, though. AHS has a completely different position regarding polymerous daylilies when it comes to classifying them for the purpose of registration. Here, the AHS has gotten it right because daylily registration is based up the scientific and botanically correct definition.

Whenever I raise these issues within AHS I am countered with "there are not enough registered polys to just their own category." Well, the distinction between polymerous daylilies and all other daylilies is "enough" to warrant a unique category for the purpose of registration, regardless of numbers, based on scientific and botanical characteristics. However, rather establishing a separate exhibition category for polymerous daylilies based on botanical and scientific characteristics AHS tosses them in the doubles creating greater confusion and going against the scientific and educational mission of the Society. If there are not enough registered polymerous daylilies to "justify" a unique exhibition category for them, then do the right thing and don't let them be exhibited. This would be better than misclassifying them and misrepresenting them as doubles. In fact, based upon the unique characteristic of polymerous daylilies, they more similar botanically and scientifically to all the various single form daylilies than they are to the double form. AHS made the right call for Registration purposes but totally blew it for Exhibitions when it comes to polymerous daylilies.

It is not a matter of numbers, rather, it is a matter of doing the right thing.
Thumb of 2012-09-23/DayliliesofNC/f04f67
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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Sep 23, 2012 4:06 AM CST
I know Bobby has been trying to get Polys their own show section for sometime, and most that exhibit daylilies would like to see them in their own section. I have been judging shows for several years and have not seen a poly entered since they grouped them with the doubles. They do not look like a double so if one was entered it would be a hard sell for a three judge panel to select one as the best in class among all those doubles. At least when they were placed with the large flowers they had a chance of winning.
Name: Juli
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daylily
Sep 23, 2012 4:47 AM CST
Welcome! Bobby! great to have you here!

I just finished reading what you wrote to the robin.

I have not been involved in, or even understand how this part of AHS works.

I don't have any advice to offer, but I wish you all the best on getting through this with the outcome you want.

Juli
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Sep 23, 2012 5:30 AM CST
Must be terribly frustrating for you. Hopefully the future holds a new polymerous category some day.
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Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Sep 23, 2012 7:06 AM CST
Well, hopefully if enough of us demand, or ask for it long and 'loud' enough, I believe it will happen. Its pretty basic to me, if there is such thing as a 100% poly, then its a category.
Name: Bobby
Wake Forest, North Carolina (Zone 7b)
Leading the Polymerous Revolution!!
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DayliliesofNC
Sep 23, 2012 8:16 AM CST
Fred, you are so right about the polys being better off when they were grouped by size for exhibitions. At least that made much more sense than grouping them incorrectly with doubles. I thought daylilies were judged on their individual merit against what is typical for that specific cultivar. Many shows have categories with no or few entries as things already are the "not enough polys' has worn itself out.

Pam, 100% polys do exist. In fact, I have registered several of them myself.
Daylilies of North Carolina
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Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Sep 23, 2012 8:28 AM CST
Exactly.
Name: Leslie Mauck
Chapin, SC (Zone 7b)
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LALAMBCHOP
Sep 23, 2012 9:04 AM CST
It would be a lot better for polys to be in their own category. C.J. Gregory won the double/poly category in the Central FL Daylily Society show with MACH ONE. Don Herr won the category with his STAR POLY at the Delaware Valley Daylily Society show. Those are the only two I know of that have won shows and they were both this year. The more we show and the more wins we take with polys the more credible our stance will be.

100% polys have been registered by six hybridizers but I firmly believe it's not enough to have a high poly %. That was acceptable in the very early days but now we've got to have good scapes and plant habit as well. OK. Off my soapbox! Sticking tongue out

It will come Bobby.
Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Sep 24, 2012 7:27 AM CST
I do have a question for you both, or anyone. Do you stick to crossing the fat with fat and skinny with skinny?

Leslie, about those strong stem..or anyone, how do you introduce that strong stem, do you cross with a non poly and pray, or do you just keep trying amongst the poly world.

ps....someone would like to get jolly poly of the LA. someone else keeps buying them Rolling my eyes. , come on and give the sista a chance Green Grin!
Name: Leslie Mauck
Chapin, SC (Zone 7b)
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LALAMBCHOP
Sep 24, 2012 3:13 PM CST
I mix things if I have a reason to. Dan said I was crazy to cross a double and a poly my first year but it worked.

Of course you have a better chance at a good poly % by crossing two good polys together but if a poly I like doesn't have the branching/bud count that I want I'll outcross to a non-poly. We just talked about this on the poly robin. Bobby and Pat C. disagreed with me so there are different views on that. I've also been outcrossing polys to patterns.

ps...someone isn't buying any more Jolly Poly so hopefully you'll get the next one. Thumbs up
Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Sep 24, 2012 4:33 PM CST
I need to find out to get on that robin, just never have done it.

lol....Ill keep my eye out for JP. One thing is for sure, you will make better use of it than me.
Name: Leslie Mauck
Chapin, SC (Zone 7b)
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LALAMBCHOP
Sep 24, 2012 4:57 PM CST
Anyone who would like to join the E-mail Poly Robin should contact Mary Anne Leisen: ma_leisen@yahoo.com She's the moderator and will set you up.

Pam, I told her a couple of weeks ago that she'd be hearing from you. Don't make me look bad now. Hilarious!


Name: Bobby
Wake Forest, North Carolina (Zone 7b)
Leading the Polymerous Revolution!!
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DayliliesofNC
Sep 25, 2012 5:25 AM CST
Pam, I think it is fine to cross fat polys with skinny polys. I continue to do so regularly. One of my favorite introductions from making such a cross is SECRET AGENT BABE. The pod parent is the full formed CAROLINA FLYING POLY POSSUM and the pollen parent is CAROLINA OCTOPUS. This same cross also yielded my spring 2013 introduction CAROLINA STARFISH.

SECRET AGENT BABE is probably one of the best unknown and uncirculated high percentage polymerous daylilies. I thought I had lost the plant during one of my garden moves, but rediscovered it a year ago. It has just become available again this season and I recommend this flower as the perfect candidate to cross with both full forms and spidery types.

Three polys that would be great to cross back and forth with SECRET AGENT BABE are SWIM BIKE RUN, REDEFINING GENETICS, and GOOD GIRLS DO. You are pretty much guaranteed to get extremely high percentage poly seedilngs, A great mix of forms and colors, and many flowers deserving registration.

Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/c4c5f7
SECRET AGENT BABE
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/secret_agent_babe.htm


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/f72f95
CAROLINA FLYING POLY POSSUM
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/carolina_flying_poly_pos...


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/310872
CAROLINA OCTOPUS
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/carolina_octopus.htm


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/c18a6d
CAROLINA STARFISH
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/carolina_starfish.htm



SWIM BIKE RUN
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/swim_bike_run.htm


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/dd9e63
REDEFINING GENETICS
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/redefining_genetics.htm


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/71c10a
GOOD GIRLS DO
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/good_girls_do.htm
Daylilies of North Carolina
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Name: Bobby
Wake Forest, North Carolina (Zone 7b)
Leading the Polymerous Revolution!!
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DayliliesofNC
Sep 25, 2012 5:41 AM CST
Leslie mentions in one of her most recent posts that I disagree with her regarding crossing non-polys with polys. Here is a reprint of my comments that she is referencing:

"... if the seedling is not showing polymerous blooms in the first season that it blooms then I discard immediately. That might be the difference between hybridizing for polymerous daylilies and hybridizing for plants that we hope/want to be polymerous daylilies. Likewise, I feel there are plenty of plants available now that we don’t have to worry about crossing polys on to non-polys and then bringing them back to the parents for 2 or 3 generations. I kinda had those thoughts 20 years ago but now that I am 50, I don’t have that time to waste anymore. Been there, done that. I also don’t believe in using a non-poly seedling from two poly parents as a bridge plant. Again, because we now have an established base of reliable polys to breed from with enough gene diversity.

Doing the F2 hybridizing and bringing the kids back and forth with the parents can be a good method but I feel you have to use the best of the kids and not the want-a-be kids. I mention this in my descriptive information for H. ‘Fractured Symmetry’ (http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/fractured_symmetry.htm) and how I plan to cross it back to H. ‘In Celebration Of Life’ (http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/in_celebration_of_life.h...) and vice-versa next season. This year I worked H. ‘Fractured Symmetry’ with H. ‘Carolina Octopus’ (http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/carolina_octopus.htm) and H. ‘Redefining Genetics’ (http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/redefining_genetics.htm)...



FRACTURED SYMMETRY
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/fractured_symmetry.htm


Thumb of 2012-09-25/DayliliesofNC/d0f4d6
IN CELEBRATION OF LIFE
http://daylily.net/nc_introductions/in_celebration_of_life.h...

Daylilies of North Carolina
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Name: Teresa
South central KY (Zone 6b)
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bluegrassmom
Sep 25, 2012 10:41 PM CST
Beautiful, I love polys. I grow CHIEF FOUR FINGERS and would love to add more!

Teresa in KY
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Sep 26, 2012 4:59 AM CST
I have never crossed for polys and have no interest in doing so, I just happen to get one, Lillian's Crazy Arms back in the late 90s. I think it was the 51st poly registered. I do like polys, but will enjoy Bobby's, Leslie's and others hard work.
Back to the original subject of polys having there on section in the shows, this is now being worked on by several people in the AHS and may come to pass in the near future.
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Name: Leslie Mauck
Chapin, SC (Zone 7b)
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LALAMBCHOP
Sep 26, 2012 2:50 PM CST
yAHOO!
Name: Teresa
South central KY (Zone 6b)
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bluegrassmom
Sep 26, 2012 4:41 PM CST
Leslie, do you grow POLY WANT A CRACKER?

http://www.daylilies.org/DaylilyDB/detail.php?id=167578&name... Want a Cracker
Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
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mcash70
Sep 26, 2012 5:39 PM CST
Welcome! Bobby.

Here's a question for the poly experts on here. If you have a poly bloom and you get a poly seed pod, will the seed produce poly seedlings?? Shrug!
Name: pam
gainesville fl (Zone 8b)
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gardenglory
Sep 26, 2012 5:43 PM CST
Do mean a seed pod on the poly, or do you mean a pod with 4 sections?

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