Plant ID forum: Genus Ziziphus sp.?

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Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 22, 2012 9:57 PM CST
Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/6126cf Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/b94ac8
Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/569eaf Thumb of 2012-11-23/KAMasud/142764
The berries are immature and quarter their ripe size.
Rolling my eyes.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 23, 2012 7:43 AM CST
Perhaps Ziziphus jujuba?

http://www.tropicalfruitnursery.com/fruitproducts_gl.htm

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/zizyphus.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujube

I would be wary of many of the photos you find on google, there's several different species.

Is it your own tree Masud?
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 23, 2012 10:07 AM CST
Yes Janet its my own tree. I love birds and their songs, so I planted trees edible both to birds and children. Children love them(neighbours) and birds. These trees fruit heavy, we get more then enough. I have for the last two years a breeding pair of Himalayan Crested Bulbuls and I don't know how many juvenile bulbuls whose crests have not developed as yet.
Ziziphus zizyphus and Ziziphus nummularia grow wild here. Its not these two. There is another Ziziphus grows down South known as Sindhi berri whose fruit is round and about one and half inch in dia. This one is elongated length is a little under two inches while dia is about one and half inch and in the nursery trade its known as Show berri. As it is a grafted tree and not natural I have a feeling about Zizyphus mauritiana. I put the scale there on purpose, our local ones have smaller sized leaves not as huge as this one.
Smiling When I am confused then I come to this forum so that other eyes also go over and counter check. Net is some what of a library reference, you get what you enter and it is not necessary that every one enters the same search parameters.
Bit off colour today due to a trip down memory lane, very far down.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 23, 2012 11:11 AM CST
Zizyphus mauritiana is accepted on the Plant List ..

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-50137113

I'm finding Ziziphus jujuba is a synonym of Zizyphus mauritiana in some places, but not on the Plant List ..

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/indian_jujube.html

http://www.tropilab.com/olijf.html

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2470699

The quality of Z. jujuba fruit is said to be better ..

http://www.quisqualis.com/37indjubjoy.html

Bark dark grey or dull black, irregularly fissured (Zizyphus mauritiana), I had noticed the bark is smooth on your tree where most I see are fissured. Could that be due to age, is yours a young tree?

http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/products/afdbases...

The ber is one of the most common fruit trees of India and is cultivated practically all over the country .. Varieties Numerous horticultural varieties of ber are grown all over India. Some of the most popular varieties are Umran, Karaka, Gola, Seb, Chhuhara, Sanaur - 2, Ilaichi and Mehrun. In Maharashtra, cv.Umran Is being grown on commercial scale. It has excellent keeping quality and transportability but flat taste.


http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/niteshyadav12-18561...

Fruits looked pointed on the end, if the photo is correct..

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag313

As there's many varieties, and yours is grafted it could be one of the varieties.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag313

http://www.zimbabweflora.co.zw/speciesdata/image-display.php...

Best stay away from memory lane unless it's a good place, today will some day be memory lane, will it be any better? I hope so. Group hug

Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 23, 2012 2:49 PM CST

Janet this Ziziphus is a cultivar. I think I can put this problem to the database'wallas to solve. Breeding and selection is different from wild plants is it not so?
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 24, 2012 12:17 AM CST

Janet, passed it along. Now their choice. Whistling
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 26, 2012 4:21 AM CST
Masud, these links give information on some cultivars of Ziziphus as well as some information on certain good cultivars (scroll down), and the regions they are grown in which is in India but it may give some clues.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/indian_jujube.html

http://www.fruitipedia.com/ber_Zizyphus_mauritiana.htm
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 26, 2012 5:58 AM CST

Janet we are not in India. United India from Peshawar to Rangoon was a distance of more then two thousand miles. We all including Burma went our own way and one thing is common amongst all the former parts of United India. Jealousy, privacy, has separated (cordon sanitaire) us. Not even a bird can fly over how can a poor Ziziphus? We can only agree to disagree.
It seems all the work on Ziziphus in Pakistan is being done at Arid Research Institute, Tandojam. Now let me see who I can contact down there. Enter into search "Agriculture University Tandojam" you should get a hit.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 26, 2012 6:46 AM CST
Yes Masud, I know it's in India and you are not but I thought it might give some clues as to the cultivars which are suited for different climates. Those cultivars were selected a long time ago as being worthy to grow so is there any reason some could not also be sold in Pakistan?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 26, 2012 7:00 AM CST
I searched on the University site and found three links, another search using a reference title I got from the second link gave me an interesting pdf with Ziziphus mentioned. It might not get you anywhere but is interesting.

http://www.google.com/custom?domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sau.ed...

http://foreverindus.org/pdf/riverine_forest%20updownstream20...
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Nov 26, 2012 7:01 AM (+)]
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Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 26, 2012 7:28 AM CST
Janet it is a tall order. Names of cultivars in this case will not work, I need the data to compare or I need a physical specimen to compare or I need a botanist to eat his head but in any case, he will also need some thing.
A little while back I was thinking with one Acacia and one Pinus outstanding, plants which we can physically differentiate from photographs or you can ask me if it is armed or not to a Ziziphus cultivar, quite a record of sorts.
Now where to find the record which will solve all three? You and I both know where the record is but it is not in my reach. The kindest thing you could do is to catch hold of all the aunties in Kew and make them members of ATP. Hilarious! Where are the botanists Janet?
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 26, 2012 9:25 AM CST
Masud, I use what I find as stepping stones to do more searching, that's how I find what I want.

I came across Babul often in the above pdf, a search for "Babul tree" then brings different results. Once more I'm finding Acacia nilotica with mention of mature trees not being armed. Young trees are armed, at what stage is a tree considered mature? When it attains a certain height?

http://www.indianetzone.com/4/babul_tree.htm

http://kumarpati.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/28/

Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Nov 26, 2012 2:05 PM CST
Mature trees of nilotica, the last one's I saw were in Sindh along the Indus river about forty years back. Huge trees.fifty feet or so with a spread about the same in Khannoot forest, district Dadu. It was deep shade under them. I don't think any have survived the greed of man in this area.
What happens is, the trunk and major branches over time lose their thorns but I wont call them thorn less. The minor branches and new growth are still armed.
Babbul and Kikkar are the same tree, Acacia. Babbul is in Urdu/Hindi, same language different names. Depends on which side of the border you are. Kikkar is in Punjabi/Sindhi/Pashto vernacular. Which boils down to this side of the border, with half of Punjab on that side. Urdu/Hindi is the main spoken language but it is evolving into two taking into its folds the local dialects so divergence over time is taking place.
Now when you enter babbul, then the trees from central India predominate. When you enter Kikkar, trees from the Western part predominate. This nilotica started from the Nile area, why don't you check Egypt from where the journey started? See what they have to say, then we have Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan where all it rested on its long journey. By the time it reached us it became subs. indica.
Regards,
Masud.
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Jan 10, 2013 4:08 AM CST
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adaduitokla/7936361690/in/photo...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adaduitokla/page29/
:confused:
Janet, any comments about a rambler?
Regards,
Arif.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Jan 10, 2013 5:40 AM CST
No comment other than it looks completely wrong! Leaf venation is wrong for a start, I don't think I want to spend my time trying to find what it is though. If they posted it here I might! Hilarious!
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Jan 10, 2013 8:03 AM CST
Hilarious!
Name: Arif Masud
Alpha Centauri (Zone 9a)
Native Plants and Wildflowers I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Container Gardener Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Enjoys or suffers hot summers Multi-Region Gardener
KAMasud
Jan 10, 2013 8:05 AM CST
Saw a butterfly today, thought of you but alas the camera was resting inside. Season coming up.
Regards,
Arif.

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