Growing Pains

By valleylynn
January 1, 2010

A plant clinic for Sempervivum, Jovibarba and J. heuffelii. This is a companion article for the Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum.

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Avatar for louise
Jul 22, 2010 5:07 PM CST
Name: Louise
East Texas, zones 7b/8a
Garden Ideas: Level 1
Thanks for the info.
Hope I can avoid that experience since I'm new at this. All of mine
are in 4" pots now, and I'm wondering if I need to start moving them
up into larger pots ??? How deep to the pots need to be to give
enough room for the roots to grow fully?

Louise
Avatar for twitcher
Jul 22, 2010 8:31 PM CST

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Louise, They will do OK in a single pot for a long time. Roots are typically not too substantial. Can you post some pics for us? that will make us able to give you a better idea.
Avatar for greenthumb
Jul 23, 2010 8:29 AM CST
Minneapolis, MN; Zone 4a
aka treelover3 @ Dave's Garden
Louise,
Typically, fasciated growth in plants is quite desirable since it is so unusual (and the fasciated plants are much more expensive than plants with "normal" growth.)

The succulent Euphorbias and many cacti develop beautiful fasciated growth almost to the point of being a piece of art.
Mike
Avatar for twitcher
Jul 23, 2010 12:25 PM CST

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
I agree I agree

Would love to have some fasciated sempervivum and jovibarba. The unusual is very interesting. Thumbs up Some examples are S. 'Oddity', S. calcareum monstrose, S. 'Whirl-i-gig'. I have not heard of any stable, fasciated or monstrose Jovi's, so that would be a great addition to the hobby (and incidentally make you famous, Louise Hurray! )
Avatar for louise
Jul 23, 2010 6:11 PM CST
Name: Louise
East Texas, zones 7b/8a
Garden Ideas: Level 1
I've only had these plants about 5 or 6 weeks, but they seem to already show signs of beginning to grow. Even with our Texas heat, which has been a heat
index of 105 and over for the last month or so - and it's not even August yet. I'm
surprised that they are still alive. They really must like the hot weather.

Are the Euphorbias a hardy succulent for zone 7b/8a ? They seem to be larger
plants than the semps and jovis - or, am I thinking about something else?

It's nice to have help available when more info is needed.
Thanks
Avatar for greenthumb
Jul 23, 2010 6:23 PM CST
Minneapolis, MN; Zone 4a
aka treelover3 @ Dave's Garden
No, unfortunately, most of the succulent Euphorbias are quite tender. They're zone 11 or maybe zone 10 plants. Euphorbia is a huge family and I know there are Euphorbia that are hardy in your zone; it's just that those Euphorbias are not the unusual, succulent forms.
Avatar for louise
Jul 23, 2010 6:34 PM CST
Name: Louise
East Texas, zones 7b/8a
Garden Ideas: Level 1
I must search 'google' for the Euphorbias now !

I found a Japanese site with hundred's of semps and jovis.
Never knew there was such a variety. It's amazing
what's out there for the searching.
Image
Jul 23, 2010 8:24 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Louise if you look over on the right side of these pages you will see a Links feature. There are a number of great reference sites listed there. Have fun. Thumbs up
Avatar for louise
Jul 24, 2010 10:48 AM CST
Name: Louise
East Texas, zones 7b/8a
Garden Ideas: Level 1
Last night, I googled Euphorbias and found out that they were
the plants that I just called cactus, or cacti ! OMG, many of them
get HUGE and the spines look very wicked, and really need to go in
the ground - which gets too cold here in the winter.

So, I think I will just concentrate on the smaller ones that are hardy.
Thanks for the reminder of the links - I had forgotten to check out
those.
Image
Jul 24, 2010 11:34 AM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Louise I just found another great site for lots of different succulents. It also has fasciated or cristata euphorbia. Lots of different fasciated or cristata plants in the collection. Think I will add this one to our Links. http://www.lapshin.org/nikita/...
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Jul 24, 2010 1:01 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy!
Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Guess what I found today - more fasciated chicks! I wonder if it has something to do with all the rain we've been having. Two chicks fell off a hen that was on my turtle topiary. These pictures are all of the same one.

Thumb of 2010-07-24/goldfinch4/84b297
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Jul 24, 2010 1:01 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy!
Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Another angle

Thumb of 2010-07-24/goldfinch4/60e124
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Jul 24, 2010 1:02 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy!
Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer
And one more angle

Thumb of 2010-07-24/goldfinch4/3fc90b
Image
Jul 24, 2010 1:04 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy!
Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer
I would love to save these but here is my question. The stems on them are really super woody, not like a normal stolen at all. You can see the stem in this picture. Right now I've just potted them up like I would normally, but I'm wondering if I should try something else instead. Any suggestions???

Thumb of 2010-07-24/goldfinch4/a530b9
Image
Jul 24, 2010 1:12 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Where is twit? I have no idea Chris. I would barely pot the trunk and prop it until it roots.
Please don't bloom little plant, just grow. Oh Chris that is just amazing. I can't wait until twit sees it. Lovey dubby
Image
Jul 24, 2010 1:16 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Chris
Ripon, Wisconsin
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Seller of Garden Stuff I sent a postcard to Randy!
Sempervivums Sedums Region: Wisconsin Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer
After I posted it here I thought maybe I should have put it in the Growing Pains forum.....
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Jul 24, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Yes, definitely put it over there. Start a new thread for it using one of the pictures in the first post.
Avatar for twitcher
Jul 24, 2010 1:38 PM CST

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Chris, Interesting. When I first looked at them, I just thought they were leaves and am still not convinced they are chicks. You may be right about that, but it is hard to tell from the pictures.

I would suggest you make sure that some of the green is in contact with the ground and watch them closely. A second alternative is to put the pot they are in in a closed clear plastic bag. If you do this you need to make sure they they are not exposed to direct sun light and make sure that the potting mix is neither too wet nor too dry. As you are an experienced grower, you should be able to judge. Perhaps a window indoors that gets bright light but no sun. The idea is to give them a stable, healthy, protected environment.

Perhaps a local company is able to do tissue culture and might be willing to help preserve an unusual plant? A local college with a biology department? If it is genetic, you would want to preserve/propagate the hen as well as the chick.

Keep all of the chicks from the hen and propagate them, even the ones that look normal. If the trait is genetic, then the normal chicks might show the trait later in life or in their chicks as some point.

If the fasciated "chicks" don't survive, then you need to concentrate on propagating the hen. If it was me and no professional help was available, I would do surgery this year to propagate the hen, regardless of the state of the chicks.

It's a risk. It doesn't always work, but I would dig up and divide the hen by cutting it in half vertically (carefully), apply a fungicide and dry a day or two, then plant each half. I would try to make the cut go very close to the growing tip of the hen. Keep them growing in the house under bright light and divide again once they are big enough. The divisions like this will often produce multiple plants from each piece, but sometimes the pieces can die. It can also depend on the size of the hen, as well as the variety of semp. I have also successfully used this method to save a hen that has started crowning for blooming, but it is very iffy for that. Think of it as vegetatively reproducing the hen, sort of like we do with heuffelii.

Why is it a risk? Well, beyond the cutting risks, there is a slight chance that the hen might survive after blooming or never bloom. But I think that is very unlikely. There is also the chance that the hen would not be able to properly generate new plants or regenerate itself normally. (but this is also why you are trying to propagate vegetatively.) Also consider that what you are seeing as "chicks" just might be fasciate flower spikes, in which case the hen may be getting ready to die.

Lot's of variables here. A lot also depends on how important it is to you to keep these going and how much expense and effort you are willing to undertake.

Oh, one more thing. If they are fasciated chicks, we don't know what the adult plants could look like! Very interesting possibilities there. Keep in mind that this could also be caused by a virus or some other environmental condition as well.

All these possibilities make this a fun project for you and it should be a worthwhile learning experience, regardless of outcome. Good luck!! Thumbs up
Avatar for twitcher
Jul 24, 2010 1:40 PM CST

Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Lynn, I would put as much of the plant (the green plant) in direct contact with the ground as I could.

(A guy's got to sleep sometime!)
Image
Jul 24, 2010 1:51 PM CST
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Whew, so glad you showed up twit. I was about to have a nervous break down over that plant. Ahhh, I can relax now.

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