lauriemorningglory said:Lucy, I agree that there are lots of beautiful, colorful SDBs. The mid-height irises are what I hope more hybridizers will work on.
I have a question: what defines a BB? How is it distinguished from a short TB or from an IB?

I think IBs bloom after SDBs and before BBs. BBs and TBs bloom at the same time. Theoretically.

Timing of bloom is what I've read, but what if you have an early blooming BB? or a late blooming IB? Why are they still classified as they are?

I have what I think is Batik, which is a BB, but it is one of the first to bloom (after SDBs) (though I admit that I'm not certain, so it is a NOID). If it blooms so early, why is it not an IB?

BB Blackbeard also blooms quite early. What makes it a BB?

Parentage, maybe? Or maybe the classification is just arbitrary and defies logic?

AndreaD said:Or maybe the classification is just arbitrary and defies logic?

Until an expert weighs in, my vote goes to you Andrea.

The original IB crosses were between TBs & SDBs. Therefore an odd chromosome count which most of the time made them infertile. BBs are 48 ch. like the TBs so are u sually more fertile. Note I said usually. IBs often have smaller flowers.


IB Arazzi.


BB Hi Buddy

The flowers here look the same size, but BB is a bit larger. BBs usually bloom after the original IBs, but more complicated linage can change that. The SDB parent of an IB causes earlier bloom. Hope this is helpful.

Laurie, the difference really is striking. Haunted Heart, for example, has foliage that's almost alien in its mass and curviness. I have it in a dry border with feather reed grass, echinacea, tall sedum, and yarrow, and it actually looks fine. I think that might be the key. It would look good in a xeric garden among rocks and cactuses. Ornamental grass goes well with it. In a normal mixed border, modern TBs look rather out of place, imo. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm culling my TBs to make room for smaller irises that mix better with other things and require less room.

lauriemorningglory said:I grew just a few older varieties (NoIDs) of TBs for a few years, and was really surprised when I started growing more modern TBs: how huge the iris leaves were. Haven't yet figured out how to "hide" the summer foliage.

A BB in reality is really a short TB (less the 28") and the bloom size in proportion. And IB is also under 28" but from dwarf heritage and blooms earlier and more petite. The hybridizer upon registration Makes the decision of what it is.

Thank you, Joe and Lucy. Lucy, what did you mean when you said earlier that "BBs would be better if people really bred for them instead of introducing short TBs as BBs." That suggests there is something more to BBs than just being a short TB.

Tienito said: As I mentioned in another thread, I'm culling my TBs to make room for smaller irises that mix better with other things and require less room.

Tienito, The smaller iris are good for me since I don't have a large yard. They are also easier for me to divide than the TBs.

'short TBs' can grow out of class with changes in weather conditions etc. True BBs don't usually 'bolt'.

Thanks Joe. The expert has weighed in.

And thank you Lucy.

Joe and Lucy for the iris classification explanation

Here is an entry from Mid America for one of their IBs, which illustrates what Joe says.

It's Amazing

$ 7.00
IT'S AMAZING (Black '12) Amazing color! Hot pink with tangerine to blue beards. Very short IB. In some areas it will be an IB and others SDB height with similar variation from season to season. By breeding it is a SDB. Rampantly vigorous. Makes instant, massive clumps. Priced the same as SDBs because of rapid increase. Early-Midseason 19" (48cm) Sdlg. Q115A: (Tickety Boo x (Spree x Cachet)) X Giddy pollen parent sib

This bloomed at an IB height for me this year. It was in very bright sun.

So now that we understand BBS and IBs, what makes an MTB?

MTBs have a specific size for the flower--no more than 3" X3" for size. They are decendents of the wild Iris variegate
which is a natural diploid. The yellow standards & yellow &red falls were the color of the wild plants. The first MTBs were that color as well & some still are. Breeders can leave anything alone of course.

So hybridizers started work. They developed other colors. Not a real wide range as they were all diploids. They some people, notably Ben Hagar wanted other colors so started working on tets, often using I.aphylla. Other colors came, but they had to get the flower down to the proper size (which isn't easy. (see next post)

irisarian said:MTBs have a specific size for the flower--no more than 3" X3" for size. They are decendents of the wild Iris variegate which is a natural diploid. The yellow standards & yellow &red falls were the color of the wild plants. The first MTBs were that color as well & some still are. Breeders can leave anything alone of course.

So hybridizers started work. They developed other colors. Not a real wide range as they were all diploids. They some people, notably Ben Hagar wanted other colors so started working on tets, often using I.aphylla. Other colors came, but they had to get the flower down to the proper size (which isn't easy. (see next post)

Is there another post coming. This is all quite fascinating.

the first tetraploid seemed to have the plant, but not the flower. work was needed but they kept on, & were able to get new colors like pink which can't appear in diploids as it need to be present 4 times in order to appear. (long history of trying for pink in TBs.)

The tets are now available. I suggest people wanting to know iris history get a copy of 'The World of Iris' from AIS. Even now irises have progressed since that book was written. Miniature Talls are a height from 8" to 26" as are the IBs & BBs. they are more put together at about 20 inches in my opinion. I'm sorry that all photos on this computer are John's & my plants as all our old photos are on slides.

Elfin Shadows (my plant)


Twilight Calm) (shows size of the flower.) Take a ruler & measure 3" X3' on your hand. Look at photos in catalogues like Mid-America.

So another question for Lucy. My most reliable bloomers are all IBs. Every single one with the exception of 'Domaine' (one of my favorite irises) blooms every year. Is there any genetic reason for this? I would also like to know why Domaine only blooms every three years. It has incredibly healthy rhizomes.

The reluctant bloomer 'Domaine'