bobjax said:
Amazing info. Thanks!
You know about hypotheses. Sometimes they are right; sometimes they are wrong or partially right/wrong. So yes, at this moment I am hypothesizing "that the 25% that germinated immediately without stratification would (could) have been evergreen."

OK so my presumed Hemerocallis lilioasphodelus (deciduous whatever it is) selfed produced on average about 25% seeds that would germinate immediately without stratification. In Dr. Griesbach's study, selfed Hemerocallis minor (deciduous) unstratified germinated according to this chart (the DV x Dom is 'Dolly Vardon' x 'Dominion', a deciduous x semi-evergreen):


(From Griesbach & Voth, "On Dormancy and Seed Germination in Hemerocallis", Botanical Gazette 1957)

And then for an evergreen: Hemerocallis fulva var. littorea seeds germinated at 50% without stratification, and at 95% with stratification.

From: https://www.cabdirect.org/cabd...

Thus deciduous x deciduous produced some seeds that germinated immediately without stratification as well as seeds that did not. An evergreen species produced seeds that germinated immediately without stratification and some that did not.

One thing I still plan to do is determine whether all the seeds in an individual pod behave the same way or whether they vary.

@bobjax
I am going to introduce the other catch with evergreen versus "dormant". That catch is that a daylily may act as an evergreen in one location (hybridizer's location) and environment but act as a "dormant" in a different location (purchaser's location) and environment. It appears that other daylilies that act as "evergreen" in the same hybridizer's location and environment act as "evergreen" in the same purchaser's location and environment.

That means we are not looking at a simple genetic system that is effectively independent of environmental and genotype X environment interaction effects. It suggests that what may be effectively determining the foliage/growth habit are genotype X environment interaction effects. That would complicate any relationship between foliage/growth habit and seed dormancy.

Having green foliage during winter in locations with mild winter weather has been one of the goals of hybridizers in those locations since soon after Stout started working with daylilies. That was helped by the use of Hemerocallis aurantiaca and H. major (or H. aurantiaca var major in the early days.

Perhaps it may be possible to compare the behaviour of seeds from some of your crosses (between registered "evergreen" daylilies) in your location and conditions versus the behaviour of seeds from the same crosses in different locations.

sooby said:

Commercial hydrogen peroxide is at a higher strength than the drug store version. I used the household hydrogen peroxide which is 3%, further dilutions shown below. The seed coat of a daylily seed is not impermeable to water, it doesn't need softening. The inhibiting effect is a membrane in one area underneath the seed coat according to Griesbach, which limits oxygen exchange.

So it's not like the kind of seed dormancy where a hard seed coat is the cause of seed dormancy. Hydrogen peroxide has been shown to break seed dormancy in some other seeds by a biochemical pathway/interaction, I don't remember exactly what was proposed. It has also been suggested that the H2O2 increases the amount of oxygen and assists in that way with other seeds.

Results after 18 days:

100% H2O2 soak = 13 germ 12 not germ
1:3 19 germ 6 not germ
1:5 13 germ 12 not germ
1:7 10 germ 15 not germ
1:9 10 germ 15 not germ
1:11 10 germ 15 not germ
1:13 9 germ 16 not germ
1:15 11 germ 14 not germ*
Plain water soak 2 germ 23 not germ*
Damp vermiculite 1 germ 24 not germ*
Control

Solutions for all changed for first time on 23rd August when counted.

Results after 4 weeks

100% H2O2 soak = 22 germ 3 not germ
1:3 25 germ 0 not germ
1:5 25 germ 0 not germ
1:7 20 germ 5 not germ
1:9 22 germ 3 not germ
1:11 23 germ 2 not germ
1:13 20 germ 5 not germ
1:15 18 germ 7 not germ
Plain water soak 4 germ 21 not germ
Damp vermiculite 7 germ 18 not germ
Control

From my notes: Weaker H2O2, water and vermiculite seedlings fewer but more advanced. H2O2 seems to break seed dormancy, speeding germination, but inhibit growth at least in the solution. Seedlings were not grown on to see if this was a permanent effect.

Going back to evergreen versus deciduous ("dormant") daylily's seeds, if it was the case that seed dormancy was related to foliage habit of either the parents or the future foliage habit of the seedling, then why do a percentage of seeds from the same parent x same parent germinate immediately and some not for some time unless stratified?

In the tests I did the seeds were from a selfed deciduous species-type daylily. Are you implying that the 25% that germinated immediately without stratification would have been evergreen?

How long did you soak for? I just started soaking some at 1:3. While waiting for germination were yours at room temperature and in what medium? After soaking I might put these in the frig in a 1:96 solution in baggy/damp perlite and bring them to room temperature after 8 days and see what happens. Thanks.

admmad said:@bobjax
I am going to introduce the other catch with evergreen versus "dormant".

Here is a catch for you. I crossed every flower of a Bogie and Becall (SEV) with every flower on a Happy Return (Dormant). Half the pods dropped at the beginning. Ended up with way over 300 seeds at the end. Almost all from one parent got damp off. Of the remaining, roughly another half, were pulled because of rust (kept one with mild rust). All those that remained were evergreens (Not SEVs; no dormants).

I was testing different methods of daylily seed treatments that people were using at the time as well as more standard methods of pre-treatment. So since some were starting their seeds in a soak of hydrogen peroxide that's what I tested. They were in the solution at room temperature but out of the sun until they were counted as having germinated in the solution. One thing I would be more careful of if I did this again would be to make sure the coleorhiza had shredded before a seed was counted as having germinated as that was Griesbach's threshold.

Stratification in damp perlite in a fridge would normally be for 3-4 weeks but some may respond faster (or need longer).

One thing I also tested that did not work all that well was soaking in H2O2:water in the fridge, I would not recommend that method based on my results and compared to other methods, although someone had claimed success that way.

sooby said:

And then for an evergreen: Hemerocallis fulva var. littorea seeds germinated at 50% without stratification, and at 95% with stratification.

That tells me that I should not fool around and I should do stratification. If they turn out dormant or rusty, pitch them after I learn that.

sooby said:

Stratification in damp perlite in a fridge would normally be for 3-4 weeks but some may respond faster (or need longer).

One thing I also tested that did not work all that well was soaking in H2O2:water in the fridge.

The eight days test is to see if the H2O2 shortens the weeks of damp cold storage normally required.
Thanks, I will not put any H2O2 in the refrig baggy. I think that very mild % in the baggy (one tablespoon to 16 oz) is only to mildly sanitize anything the seed touches. It deteriorates fast. IMHO.

@bobjax

Here is a catch for you. I crossed every flower of a Bogie and Becall (SEV) with every flower on a Happy Return (Dormant). Half the pods dropped at the beginning. Ended up with way over 300 seeds at the end. Almost all from one parent got damp off. Of the remaining, roughly another half, were pulled because of rust (kept one with mild rust). All those that remained were evergreens (Not SEVs; no dormants).

A potential catch is that although all that remained were evergreens in your location they could all be dormants in a different location.

'Ida's Magic', 'Betty Warren Woods' and "Court Magician' are Munson evergreen registrations. All three are "dormant" here. Munson hybridized them in Florida and he registered them as evergreen. If I had hybridized them here all three would have been registered as "dormant"/deciduous.

The genes of the cultivars do not change when grown in different locations but the environments do change. If I cross them with each other here will the seeds show seed dormancy because they were from dormant crosses or because of the environment that they experience while developing here. If the same crosses were made in Florida would the seeds not show seed dormancy because they were from "evergreen" crosses or because of the environment that they experience while developing in Florida?

It would be great to have the Hybridizer, the date, and the location hybridized listed on all daylilies, just for that reason.

sooby said:
And then for an evergreen: Hemerocallis fulva var. littorea seeds germinated at 50% without stratification, and at 95% with stratification.

Logically Hemerocallis fulva var. littorea appears to be an evergreen, but the only site that I could see any reference to its type was this site:
https://jcra.ncsu.edu/horticul...
Growing in Victoria:
https://namethatplant.wordpres...
Doesn't matter really. Just shows that stratification should be done. Placed my first three test baggies into cold stratification this afternoon.

admmad said:@bobjax
If the same crosses were made in Florida would the seeds not show seed dormancy because they were from "evergreen" crosses or because of the environment that they experience while developing in Florida?

So wonder how many of these would be dormant in Canada. Not many dormants on this list. The interesting thing is many of his dormants are listed as SEV-Dor.
http://distinctly.on.ca/floydc...

I don't have any of the Pierce registered daylilies; I do have quite a few of the Stamile registered tetraploids, from Florida breeding as well as New York breeding.
When I purchase daylilies I do not pay any attention to whether they are registered as "evergreen" or "dormant". When they grow here they nearly all behave as "dormants", whether they were registered as "evergreen", "semi-evergreen" or "dormant".
Daylilies registered as "evergreens, for example 'Crystal Blue Persuasion' can behave like dormants even when grown inside without experiencing short days or cool temperatures.

My basic assumption is that a daylily that is registered as "semi-evergreen" is actually able to become "dormant", unlike a daylily that is registered as "evergreen" which should not be able to become "dormant" - but apparently most of those are also able to become "dormant" and do so in appropriate locations/environments.

admmad said:

My basic assumption is that a daylily that is registered as "semi-evergreen" is actually able to become "dormant", unlike a daylily that is registered as "evergreen" which should not be able to become "dormant" - but apparently most of those are also able to become "dormant" and do so in appropriate locations/environments.

In my garden, dormants go down to just above the ground in late fall; the evergreens start a huge growth sprout in the fall. I watched that carefully this year after all our discussions last year. The evergreens seem to do better because they enter the spring in great shape. Re: "go down to just above the ground in late fall', I am sure you have seen this video but it explains it perfectly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I buy an evergreen. They strip it down to nothing and ship it across the US and I get it very dry, but it comes back and grows. Does that mean it went dormant? Or did it survive the brutal conditions? Another brutal condition it might survive would be a severe winter in Canada. I have heard that most evergreens turn to mush in the extremely cold during the winter. Do they go dormant or just bounce back like the tortured daylilies that come dried out when shipped very long distances?

I'm a bit confused by the question, are you thinking of dormancy in terms of simply loss of foliage as opposed to the scientific definition of a suspension of growth which may or may not be accompanied by loss of foliage? In my climate all daylily foliage is killed back to the ground in winter regardless of registered habit. Some daylilies registered as evergreen in warmer winter areas set dormant overwintering buds below the ground here and emerge as do the deciduous daylilies, with two short outer leaves like "bud scales".

sooby said: Some daylilies registered as evergreen in warmer winter areas set dormant overwintering buds below the ground here and emerge as do the deciduous daylilies, with two short outer leaves like "bud scales".

Do those "some daylilies" who set these buds have a SEV type gene that protects a plant whether the winter is mild and again when the winter turns very cold? It is easy to see how that could have happened through evolution over many years. The plant survived who could withstand both winter extremes over hundreds of years. The question is how many fulvas evolved that way?

@bobjax
How do the daylilies that are registered as SEV and that you consider are SEV respond to winter in your garden?
1) Do they have a full fan of green leaves at the start of winter and some of the leaves yellow and die with time?
2) Do they grow new leaves during winter but when there is a freeze some of the leaves die and are replaced by new leaves?
3) Do they not grow any new leaves during winter, so that as the leaves die they become more like "dormant" daylilies and are almost entirely underground?

Presumably daylilies that you consider are "evergreen" grow full, adult length fans of leaves during winter and the leaves are undamaged by freezes?

admmad said:@bobjax
How do the daylilies that are registered as SEV and that you consider are SEV respond to winter in your garden?
1) Do they have a full fan of green leaves at the start of winter and some of the leaves yellow and die with time?
2) Do they grow new leaves during winter but when there is a freeze some of the leaves die and are replaced by new leaves?
3) Do they not grow any new leaves during winter, so that as the leaves die they become more like "dormant" daylilies and are almost entirely underground?

Presumably, daylilies that you consider are "evergreen" grow full, adult length fans of leaves during winter, and the leaves are undamaged by freezes?

Interesting that Pierce labels some of his as SEV/Dormant.
I view mine Sevs as Sev/Evergreen.
I look at the plant during winter and really don't know what they are until I check my spreadsheet.
The Dormants are different. They do go down but don't disappear. It's like what Hansen said that people ask if their plant is dying and he has to explain they are dormant. That's why he made that video.
About the leaves: I feel many of the "old" leaves die on evergreen/SEVs plants when they are not needed after blooming, like roses. I am not proposing this but could a fan need a certain amount of leaves while in a maintenance period? So they pare down unnecessary leaves after blooming so the plant does not have to support them. Prior to blooming when they need new leaves to support the growth/blooms, they add new leaves starting in the fall. One Facebook post asked why some leaves were yellowing. Then others said the same. All kinds of answers like scorch, leaf streak, needs fertilizer. If everyone is getting it including me, then the daylily appears to be giving up the leaves they don't need after blooming to go into a rest period. Again, I am not proposing this, but it is a possibility for SEV/evergreens.

I am certainly asking myself the same question about yellowing dying leaves. I think some of it is leaf scorch, the ones in the shade do not show nearly so many yellowing leaves, but the ones in the shade are also later blooming than the ones in the sun. So it will be interesting to see when they have mostly bloomed out what the leaves do.

Leaves have a certain lifespan. They start growing and grow in length until they reach a mature size. They then live for a certain length of time but after that length of time they will die. They will yellow and finally dry. During the time that they are yellowing whatever resources can be reused are scavenged by the plant, removed from the dying leaf and stored or used for new growth.
There are two different ways that the leaf growth of the plant will affect the yellowing/dying of old age of leaves.
A daylily that sprouted from an overwintered bud in the spring to produce a fan of leaves and a scape and then stopped growing (produced a new bud) may have all its leaves more or less yellow and die at one time, usually late in the growing season. When the mature leaves die it is not unusual for the bud to sprout and new leaves to grow.

A daylily that overwintered with mature leaves (evergrowing) will simply produce new leaves with some rests perhaps when it flowers or if the temperatures are too high or it is too dry, etc. Its leaves are likely to yellow and die one by one as they become too old to function well. However, it may also respond to some signal near the end of the growing season and cause its old leaves to yellow and die at more or less the same time. It would be expected to continue to produce new green leaves during the yellowing of the old leaves.

All leaves age and as they do so presumably they become less efficient at producing the resources the plant requires. They then are destroyed by the plant, whatever resources can be are recovered and if the environment is appropriate new leaves are produced to take the place of the old leaves.

The daylily dictionary definition of semi-evergreen:
"The foliage of semi-evergreen daylilies dies back nearly to the ground in very cold climates. Some green will be seen near the base. Generally, semi-evergreens wait until spring to resume growth."

I have always assumed that when a "semi-evergreen" resumes growth in the spring, if its first few "leaves" are very short and look like the first few "leaves" of a "dormant"/deciduous daylily then it is actually a "dormant" or deciduous daylily. If its first few leaves grow to be the normal length and size of the cultivar's normal mature leaves then it is an "evergreen"/evergrowing daylily.

Whether a daylily has leaves that survive winter will depend on the severity of the winter but basically is likely to be independent of whether it sets "buds" that "rest" over winter or does not set such buds. How well leaves survive winter is a foliage hardiness characteristic and setting buds or not are growth characteristics and the two types of characteristics are likely to be genetically independent if not independent in all respects.