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Feb 11, 2022 10:04 AM CST
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The plant shown above is not Cotyledon Orbiculata var Oblonga, but cotyledon Orbiculata Var. Undulata. I suggest we move it to the entry for Var Undulata. I have put in a request for Var. Undulata to get added to the database.
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Feb 11, 2022 11:29 AM CST
Name: Baja
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According to the Catalogue of Life (and our database), undulata is a synonym for var. oblonga, despite the big difference in appearance. This apparently has to do with a revision by Ernst van Jaarsveld. And undulata is apparently a form rather than a variety. In any case I think this image is fine where it is, unless/until a new entry is created for the wavy leafed plants. Here is the entry on a web site that I usually trust on these things, with some other interesting information about names:

https://www.smgrowers.com/prod...
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Feb 11, 2022 11:37 PM CST
Name: Sue Taylor
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That would have been the name on the plant label at the garden centre. I merely photographed it.
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Apr 16, 2022 6:01 PM CST
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@Baja_Costero
Could Var. undulata actually be Cotyledon orbiculata var. oblonga 'Undulata'?
And, could these 2 photos from Kniphofia actually be Cotyledon orbiculata 'Mucronata?
Should we demote this photo to just Cotyledon orbiculata, or Cotyledon?
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Apr 16, 2022 8:44 PM CST
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I don't think there ever was a Cotyledon orbiculata var. undulata. Cotyledon undulata was once an accepted name, but it is now a synonym for Cotyledon orbiculata var. oblonga. In the absence of any evidence that Kniphofia's photos are of a cultivar named 'Undulata,' it seems they are in the correct entry now. Why should the photos be "demoted"?
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Apr 16, 2022 9:41 PM CST
Name: Baja
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I agree

Using cultivar names for former species (eg. undulata) or even for hybrids of recognized species can be problematic unless there is essentially no variation. A cultivar name should represent one plant, that is to say one genotype, one phenotype, at least until its variegated sports (or whatever) arrive on the scene. Once a cultivar name starts being applied to a range of forms then its meaning is lost, or at best diluted.

That said, I realize the database is full of 'Cultivars' that do not conform to this rigid thinking, and may themselves vary quite a bit (for example the generic 'Variegata' which applies to however many individual variegated forms). I do try to weigh the advantages of specificity (an imperfect name may be better than no name). But in this case I really have no idea how extensive or variable the former species undulata may be, and whether it may include plants visually different from the wavy leafed plant that originally went out through the ISI (which the database has as 'Mucronata').

As a side note, using Latin names for cultivars is also problematic if not impermissible, in a strict botanical sense. It breaks down the firewall we keep linguistically between single plant forms (Aeonium 'Zwartkop' or 'Sunburst' for example) and whatever range of forms may constitute a species (or former species), whose name is typically Latin. I'm not advocating any particular change to the database, just noting the imperfections in cultivar naming.
Last edited by Baja_Costero Apr 16, 2022 10:28 PM Icon for preview
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