THEY wouldn't share with ME!

Oh well, who wants frog-slimed beer anyway, right? (Ewwwww!)

>> who wants frog-slimed beer anyway, right?

One guy was talking about how much slugs like beer. He had a back deck at second-floor-level ... up a big flight of stairs from ground level. He was drinking beer from a can, and left the can on a table on the the deck when he went to do something.

FORTUNATELY he came back soon enough to see the slug that had climbed the stairs, and the table, and the can ... and was just about to fall into the can.

If he had been 30 seconds slower, he would have finished the can with the slug inside.

Question: if it was you, would you rather have swallowed the slug without realizing it, or felt it in your mouth and spit it out, but never be able to forget it?

Slugweiser?

d. None of the above.


P.S. "Oh, you ARE sick!"

Leftwood pointed out in a TreeMail that Wikipedia wasn't the only source that uses the "without human intervention" definition of OP. I think he might have implied that botanists (pure scientists) might use the term differently from horticulturalists (more inte4rested in real world or practical things to do with plants).

I think he also said that "promiscuously pollinated" has a technical meaning in some field.

So far I'm only finding references to "promiscuous pollinators" - plants that let themselves be pollinated by a wide range of insc ts, or maybe unselective insects that don't c are WHERE they find nectar ... or something lascivious like that.

But I know that I don't know about "PP". I thought that "Landrace Joseph" invented the term for encouraging genetic variety within an adaptable seed population to be used in a stressful micro-climate. Like Woofie, Joseph also considers the "wind and insects" meaning to be the common-sense one, but he's willing to call it PP instead.
http://garden.lofthouse.com/is...

Anyway, let me apologize again for thinking that the way seed catalogs and I use the term "OP" is the "right way" and implying that the "wind and bees" usage is a "wrong way".

I'll try to hold down on the long-winded rants here until I understand Leftwood's points.

What Leftwood was saying finally sank in ... groups like Seed Savers Exchange blur together the two meanings because they do go together in a practical way.

It is practical to maintain genetically stable OP varieties true to themselves with wind and insect pollination AS LONG AS you maintain isolation distances.

The only practical way to produce F1 hybrids is through human intervention (pulling off anthers or stamens, bagging blooms, transferring pollen with a paintbrush, creating 'pollen sterility' in one parent strain, or whatever.)

I'm revising my blog entry (like so, for now), but can 't find any "Idea" where I started to submit it as a Glossary tip. Maybe I forgot!

An OP variety is genetically stable enough that it "comes true" to it's parents if it pollinates itself.

So you can maintain an OP variety with random pollination in an open field (wind or insect pollination) as long as other varieties of the same species are not closs enough to cross-pollinate ("isolation distnace").

The opposite of an OP variety is an F1 hybrid variety. Those require human intervention to maintain. Usually there are two or more inbred "parent" varieties and the named F1 cultivar is produced by carefully preventing the seed parent from pollinating herself, while someone transfers pollen from the male parent.

Of course you CAN bag and hand-pollinate an OP variety (but there is no point to wasting the effort unless you CAN'T provide isolation distances and want to guarantee 0.0% cross pollimastion for some reason).

And F1 varieties CAN pollinate themsleves randomly without human intervention (but you get a wide variety of 'blah' plants without the special traits the F1 cultivar was appreciated for).

I understand that it's courteous to indicate on a traded seed packet that the blooms were not bagged and insects had their way with the plants. I never assume that traded seed is maintained fussily in total purity unless someone says so specifically (or it came from Jonna).

But I'll go back to my first post on this thread: I wish there was an easy and agreed-upon way to indicate ABOUT how true-to-the-parent-variety the seed is likely to be.

- from a commercial packet
- some thought given to isolation but no guarantees
- grown in a mixed bed so expect 50% cross-pollination

All three are valuable, and any petunia seed I save is in the third category (but I do grow some in pots so I can move them to opposite ends of the deck, so I can encourage distinct colors).

By that definition, nearly all seed from commercial packets is Open Pollinated. Ever see the seed production fields in Lompoc, CA? ( I think they belong to Burpee, but I could be wrong about that.) Really beautiful, huge blocks of color.

I do believe that most people agree with the Wikipedia definition of Open Pollinated:
" Open pollination is pollination by insects, birds, wind, or other natural mechanisms, and contrasts with cleistogamy, closed pollination, which is one of the many types of self pollination.[1] Open pollination also contrasts with controlled pollination, which is controlled so that all seeds of a crop are descended from parents with known traits, and are therefore more likely to have the desired traits.

The seeds of open-pollinated plants will produce new generations of those plants; however, because breeding is uncontrolled and the pollen (male parent) source is unknown, open pollination may result in plants that vary widely in genetic traits."

>> By that definition, nearly all seed from commercial packets is Open Pollinated.

Except for F1 hybrid seed, right?

>> the Wikipedia definition of Open Pollinated:

They are talking about the process or method by which some batch of plants were pollinated.

I think it is a crying shame that almost the same words are used to describe something very different: the genetic nature of a variety or cultivar, namely are they F1 hybrids or an OP variety.

It is true that most seed companies multiply OP varieties in isolated plots where wind and insects pollinate them out in the open.

It also seems that I'm the only one who cares about the distinction. Oh, well.

It also seems that no one has agreed that it would be nice if seed traders specified whether their seeds were "heavily cross-pollinated" or "probably mostly self-pollinated". Sigh! I guess I really am a nerd.

When I care, I should ask. Of course, I care every time something goes to seed and I grab some before it scatters. "Oh boy oh boy, I HAVE SEED!!"

In most trades and swaps that I've seen, hardly anyone says or asks about how much cross-pollination was likely.

My guess is that most seed traders who like a species of flowers, grow several varieties in one yard or one bed, and hence there is a little or a lot of cross-pollination in traded flower seeds.

My guess is that many traded, saved crop seeds happen to come from a patch with just that one variety of that species.

No, I don't think it's a matter of not caring; more a question of confusing terminology. The term "Open Pollinated" obviously means very different things to different people.

Perhaps it would be possible to create some sort of standard terminology here for the purpose of making clear the "genealogy" as it were of seeds being offered for trade. Perhaps an ATP set of clearly defined terms, whether or not they're "industry standard," that could be referred to just for the purpose of seed trading here. Perhaps with references to the more confusing terms used elsewhere. The whole idea is (or should be) to provide clarity, not necessarily to conform to some esoteric standard. Maybe?

>> The whole idea is (or should be) to provide clarity,

I agree that's desirable

>> not necessarily to conform to some esoteric standard.

That would be undesirable (and impractical even if the attempt were4 made) .

In fact, I'm remembering some advice I was given related to "New Bee Seeds" elsewhere, asking someone to do something different from their usual or preferred methods, will most likely deter them from contributing.

Now I'm thinking, I should have started this thread differently:

Another thread discussed packet sizes when we offer seeds for postage. If donors feel like it, they could post their offers with something something like "around 30 seeds" or "small sample" or "1/16th tsp" or "1/4 gram". (Actual sizes will be chosen by each person who kindly donates seeds.)

I think it would be nice if people chose to list "collected from my garden in 2011" or "packed for 2013 by Hazzards".

If anyone cares to specify approximately how cross-pollinated they think their seed is, that's a kind bonus. For example "comm. seed", or "heavily cross-pollinated" or "may be somewhat cross-pollinated".

Handwriting long labels can be a pain.

There seems to be confusion on the grafted tomatoes?
Some say the root stock does not alter the scion tomatoes and others say it does.
So now I am wondering if, in seed swaps, tomatoe seeds should be labelled as to grafted or not?

That's interesting! I'd never heard of grafted tomatoes!

>> Some say the root stock does not alter the scion tomatoes and others say it does.

I'm sure it affects growth and somatic tissue. MAYBE it even affects some expression of genes in the top half of the plant.

But how could it affect the genes in pollen, ovules (is that the word?) or seeds?

So, what is the benefit from grafting tomatoes?

Johnnys says:

"Increased Vigor and Disease Resistance"

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/Ass...

It is also a money maker for some of the agri businesses who developed the
root stocks. The plants,--- grafted tomatoe plants are running about $15.Canadian here.
It has been used by commercial tomatoe growers for decades in the southern states and Australia and New Zealand.

The marketeers also say it increases yields.

I can see it for warm climates where soil borne diseases are prevalent.
But it boggles my mind to understand why they graft a strong grower like Stupice???