Sent off another plaintive note to the Texas folk (heh, trying to play on their sympathies by mentioning the family connection ) We'll see if they at least respond this time.

thank you.

Bingo! The Vavilov Institute of Plant Industry in St. Petersburg, Russia, lists it in their database! I'll try to find out whether they still have seeds and whether we can request them.

I see that the date they acquired the seeds was 1947, and Joe Palmer sold them until 1948. Maybe he sent them a sample when he knew he wasn't going to be selling them any more?
Maybe he sent some to the USDA too, but we cut funding more than they did.

http://www.vir.nw.ru/dev/php/a...
http://www.vir.nw.ru/test/virb...

ACCENUMB: 2928
ACCENAME: SCHOCHLER
TAXONOMY: Cucurbitaceae
GENUS: Citrullus
Species: lanatus
IDDATA: 96745
ACQDATE: 1947
ORICTY USA
DONCTY USA
SAMPSTAT BR
SAMPSTAT Founder stock/base population

Amusingly, I didn't find them by searching the Internet. I knew of them from 20-30 years ago when THEIR funding was being cut drastically, and I sent them a small check. I don't know if all their listings are current, but if even 10% of them are still in storage, they have MANY varieties.

I applaud them for making their accessions searchable by the public.

http://www.vir.nw.ru/
http://www.vir.nw.ru/data/dbf....

http://www.vir.nw.ru/dev/php/a...

http://www.vir.nw.ru/test/virb...

ACCENUMB: 2928
ACCENAME: SCHOCHLER
TAXONOMY: Cucurbitaceae
GENUS: Citrullus
Species: lanatus
IDDATA: 96745
ACQDATE: 1947
ORICTY USA
DONCTY USA
SAMPSTAT BR
SAMPSTAT Founder stock/base population

Woo Hoo!

Oh yeah!

If you want to Tree-mail your regular email address to me, I'll send you a copy of the email to the Vavilvov Institute, and copy you on future emails.

Corey
(REALLY having fun now)

Rick, you are amazing!

Great job, Rick!

stacyschochler said:Woo Hoo!

Thank you, but it's fun and exciting. Dr.Irina Gashkova wrote right back:

Dear Mr. Richard Corey,

I looked this accession in our fund of seeds of water-melon. This
accession has white seeds. We keep two reproduction of 2002 and 2008
years, but not more seeds. These seeds of a reproduction of 2008 are in
genebank of VIR. How many seeds of water-melon Schochler is necessary for
you for a multiplication? I'm must thinking about a possibility of a
sending.

Best regards,
I.V. Gashkova


Yay hooray!

>> How many seeds of water-melon Schochler is necessary for you for a multiplication?

Stacy, what do you think? What's a safe number to request? It seems awfully easy to me to lose one whole crop!

And would you like to send some to someone else in good water-melon-growing country, to protect against some grazing animal eating them all?

I'm hoping that after you and maybe others grow out some plants from the 2008 Vavilov crop, you'll offer seeds to Drs. Pederson & Jarret at USDA ARS in Griffin, Georgia, and Dr. Dr. Todd Wehner (NCSU – Raleigh). I think that NCSU seems to be the most serious watermelon researchers / academic preservers, based on their website.

Then three groups have expressed a definite interest in preserving the strain, I assume also considering making it available commercially again.
Baker Creek
Sustainable Seed Company
Victory Seeds

Or I don't know - if one harvest produces a salable number of seeds, maybe the Schochler family could once again sell their family heirloom to a distributer! ("The Schochler watermelon shall rise again!")

My feeling is that Stacy should decide what happens to any seeds that are sent, as the Schochler family member who initiated the search.

I'm trying to find out what the 'safe" number of breeding individuals is, to protect against inbreeding depression. For different crops, that can range from "a few" up to 100 plants (corn is fussy that way).

It sounds like watermelons are in the "just a few" category, or maybe even "just one", but does anyone know for sure?

If the Schochlers became the only preservers of the strain, maintaining genetic variety might be "desirable", but much easier to save seeds from as many plants as convenient in the first generation out of the seed bank, and send some from each plant to the Griffin GA seed bank, and also to a few seed vendors and breeders.


http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucu...

"Since there is little inbreeding depression in watermelon, inbred lines are developed using self-pollination with little loss of vigor from the parental population."



http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucu...


Inbreeding Depression and Heterosis
Watermelon is monoecious, and is naturally cross-pollinated like maize. However, there is not as much inbreeding depression or heterosis as one might expect. This is similar to other cucurbits such as cucumber and melon. It has been suggested that the lack of inbreeding depression is due to the small population size used by farmers during the domestication of the species. Watermelon plants are large, so only a few plants probably were grown in each area. Therefore, even with monoecious sex expression and insect-pollinated flowers, there would have been considerable inbreeding among the few plants representing the population. Since there is little inbreeding depression in watermelon, inbred lines are developed using self-pollination with little loss of vigor from the parental population.

Way to go, Rick!!!!

I have NO idea.... I have never grown watermelon before, so I'd love advice from all of you. I think we'd be willing to allow some of you that are more experienced with growing them to have some seeds to see if we can get a good crop going so that we can have more seeds. I originally wanted them to just see if I could grow them here outside of Houston, but now with a limited supply... I'm a little nervous about messing it up and losing the seeds.

I'd love to know what everyone thinks.

Thanks so much Rick!

I think that the more people that grow it the better the odds of at least a few getting it to maturity and getting the seeds. Crop failure can and does happen all the time. And I agree with Rick that it is Stacy's call.

I personally think @dave would be a great person to ask about this.

Way to go Rick. I've been following this thread since the question was asked.

Great job, Rick. I'm impressed.

Patti's right, the more people growing this, the better.

Watermelons cross readily with other watermelons, so to really be successful here in saving and preserving these seeds, you'd want to grow them in an isolated area or else be ready to hand pollinate them and ensure the seed purity.

Thank you, everyone!

I hope a few people volunteer. It should sound good to Dr. Gashkova that we're going to divide the sample she sends us and grow them at several different sites to reduce the risk of losing it again.

I see that territorial suggests starting indoors, 2-3 seeds per 4" pot and then only keep the best seedling in each pot. And spacing transplants 3-4 feet apart in rows 5-6 feet apart. Several people suggest hills or mounded rows so the soil warms up faster, and plastic mulch for warmer soil if you're not in the South.

I'm purely guessing here: asking people to grow 4-5 plants sounds like 10-15 seeds each. That would make me nervous, to only have 15 seeds! Maybe ask for 20 seeds per volunteer, and some of the volunteers will probably save 5-10 seeds for next year "just in case".

Stacy plus 2 volunteers would be 60 seeds. Stacy plus 3 would be 80 seeds. I wouldn't want Dr. Gashkova to think we were greedy or lazy by asking for too many seeds, however many that is.

Maybe just tell her that we're splitting however many we get among N people to reduce risks of losing the whole crop from disease or insects. Can she spare 20 seeds for each site or should we only ask for 10 each?

(If they keep the 6-year interval at Vavilov, the 2008 accession will be due to be multiplied in 2014 anyway. So maybe they will be willing to give away more after they harvest their 2014 crop! We could ask for more seeds in the fall of 2014 if we don't get a crop this year.)

I did find the answer about cross-pollination: watermelon is insect-pollinated so a separation distance of 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile is suggested. Or bagging some female blooms and doing hand-pollination.

(I've never done hand-pollination of anything, and also my western WA summer nights range from cool to cold, so I can't volunteer to grow any out.)

Our first generation will be for-real serious preservation of an heirloom, at least until several seeds banks add it to their long-term freezers. So if anyone thinks they're likely the only ones in their neighborhood growing watermelon, volunteering would be really angelic.

I guess Vavilov doesn't freeze these, I guess that instead of freezing, they propagate it every 6 years so the seeds stay fresh but accessible, yet risk genetic drift and put a lot more labor into it.

Also apparently, 'Schochler' must be an OP strain by now. That's good news!

Those all sound like good suggestions/thoughts, Rick. Although, maybe just a general question "How many seeds would be reasonable to request" since we have no idea how many they have stored? With an explanation of what we're trying to accomplish? Have you tried to enlist volunteers from the Heirloom forum?

I'll volunteer, I grow watermelon but I am no expert. I only grow one variety at a time and have nobody near me that is growing watermelon but if it were me I would hand pollinate just to be on the safe side.