Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum: The Naming of new Sempervivum

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Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
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gg5
Sep 17, 2013 12:06 PM CST
Bev maybe it could be your pre-Paris trip! haha
Yan that is a nice offer...personally not able to do that Sad I will look at the photos and drool though! I tip my hat to you. Thanks

Lynn, Peter, @jungleShadows what's involved in getting a semp named? I've been wondering this and seems a good place to ask.
What "body" regulates the names of semps? (or other plants for that matter? Is it groups of enthusiasts who want to maintain accurate naming? and parental info. or is there a world name database??) Does someone get a type of patent for their plant?
Thanks in advance for info I tip my hat to you.
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
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banker07
Sep 17, 2013 12:35 PM CST
Hi Greg;

interesting questions Thumbs up

it's me and my semps-friends in germany who starts to collect all informations about every named semps all over the world; the actual result you can find in our dictionary/homepage;

we find out that there is no official institution who cares about it;

any hobby-semps-breeder may give his seedlings names.... Crying

but then you will have thousands of cultivars with different appearence but the same names;

so we start to check every new upcoming cultivar-name and find out if there is a serious source/breeder behind it; only if you can compare your new seedlings with a great stock of collected named cultivars it is serious to give names to it....that is what we think;

if we can't find the origin and the appearance is common we won't add it to our database because there are enough known cultivars with the same appearance;

when a "normal" semps-collecteur starts breeding and there is a very nice one he wants to name.....then a stage like this on ATP or our forum might be the right place to show it....after some years of observance and own comparison;

then a lot of experienced semps-fans may discuss to name it or not;
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 17, 2013 2:40 PM CST

Moderator

I believe that is the way it has been done in the US also Peter.
Maybe @JungleShadows can give us more information on this. I do believe he addressed some of this at the Hybridizing Clinic this spring.
You can watch the clinic videos using this link: http://garden.org/thread/view_post/400432/
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 17, 2013 2:46 PM CST

Moderator

I have split this topic into it's own thread. Let us keep this thread for discussion only on how new Sempervivum are named.
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
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banker07
Sep 17, 2013 3:40 PM CST
very good idea Thumbs up
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
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sandnsea2
Sep 17, 2013 3:48 PM CST
Great question, Greg!! Thumbs up

Thanks, Peter, for the interesting explanation!

Lynn, so happy this has its own thread. Such a fascinating topic.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Sep 17, 2013 6:17 PM CST
I had no idea that it was so random! No wonder there can be so many with names no one has ever heard of before! I knew that it was like this in the past, but I thought things had changed somehow.
Peter does your German group just go by photos or do hybridizers send you semps so you can see/compare for unusualness on your own??
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 17, 2013 6:22 PM CST

Moderator

Greg, many of the named ones we can't find reference for are ones that some one else has given a new name for. There are a couple of online nurseries doing it. Crying
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Sep 17, 2013 6:25 PM CST
Oh that's not good! I thought it was just someone's new hybrid, didn't realize they're just taking another semp and renaming it! Thumbs down Sad
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 17, 2013 6:39 PM CST

Moderator

They loose tags, or get them mixed up. The nurseries that are doing that don't care about the names, just the sales.
The good nurseries make the correction, because it can happen to any and all.
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
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springcolor
Sep 17, 2013 11:53 PM CST
That's not good. So much work went into getting the names right. Maybe we should start a Sempervivum society. Then we could have fun meetings 3 or 4 times a year, have interesting speakers and auction plants!!!! The Iris, daylily and rose people all have them.. We could be the first district!!! Hurray!
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Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
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banker07
Sep 18, 2013 1:49 AM CST
in germany the biggest activ breeders (Erwin Geiger/Volkmar Schara/Martin Haberer/Horst Diehm) present their new cultivars with photos and description; on our homepage we mostly show them in a news - so the semps-fans can see them before buying;

the older cultivars we try to get from the breeder directly or from someone who get it from the breeder; so we can compare with all the stuff around in the collections; or we ask the breeder to take a look at our photos to confirm or disagree;

a society seems good; but no breeder is obligated to do what that society wants to.....there is no law to rely on;

we only can appeal to all that breeders and nurseries.....and ignore all that stuff we can't ascertain;

a lot of semps-fans take a look at our homepage before they order new cultivars Smiling
they try to find this ones we've never seen before from serious sources; step by step the gaps at older cultivars were closed;

and when they find new names they inform us - so we can make previous researches; so we find some unknown cultivars from known breeders; f.e. there is a cultivar like 'Sqib' we discovered some time ago without informations about the breeder - after a lot of researches we found out that Howard J. Wills has introduced it;
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 18, 2013 8:28 AM CST

Moderator

We have been sorting through some plants here Peter, finding that they are incorrectly named. When this happens we notify the members here so they can make corrections in their collections.
We already have several that have become NOIDs in our collections.
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 18, 2013 9:08 AM CST
Thumbs up

it seems to be the only way to keep the collections clean and proper Smiling

we tried to inform the nurseries too - but they are mostly not really interested in such informations Angry
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 18, 2013 6:39 PM CST

Moderator

SMG, Perennial Obsessions Northhills Nursery and Youngs Garden Center are great at making corrections if they come up. Thumbs up
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Sep 18, 2013 8:52 PM CST
Thumbs up
Plants bring me peace and calm, more of what we all need Smiling
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 19, 2013 1:36 AM CST
Thumbs up that is very commendable;
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
JungleShadows
Sep 19, 2013 12:51 PM CST
Hi guys,

Years ago the Sempervivum Society was given the duty as International Registrar for Sempervivum and Jovibarba. Peter Mitchell contacted me and we went over a list of Sempervivum and Jovibarba cultivars then in cultivation in the US (many had not reached Europe) and he came out with a list of the then known cultivars from both sides of the Atlantic. This was published in the early '80's but of course since then we have had 4X that many cultivars introduced to the market as were on this original list. With the demise of the Sempervivum Society there is no international board for just Sempervivum.

So now we sort of resort to the "old rules", that a plant was "officially introduced" when it appeared in a printed list (or in the electronic world) offered for sale in a web site. The other option is to have the name published in an article in a publication. Either forms of publication can establish a cultivar name in the absence of a body to do so.

Naming plants for deceased people does not require permission but you should always request the permission of living people to have a plant named for them. So, the plants I named 'Polly Bishop' and 'Helen Payne' both deceased can be named but naming one 'Lynn Smith' would require her permission.

The names for my other new cultivars were ones I thought others would not use so the chances for confusion would be minimal. I do not think naming a Jovibarba and Sempervivum with the same cultivar name is not a good idea. Too many chances for confusion even though it is legitimate under the present rules. For one, the two genera CAN cross, although not easily. Of course some authorities lump them in a single genus.

Opinions??

Kevin

Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 19, 2013 1:09 PM CST
JungleShadows said:
So now we sort of resort to the "old rules", that a plant was "officially introduced" when it appeared in a printed list (or in the electronic world) offered for sale in a web site. The other option is to have the name published in an article in a publication. Either forms of publication can establish a cultivar name in the absence of a body to do so.


whatever we think about the right way...there are breeders and collecters in eastern europe, japan and china...would they agree and follow that rules?

till there is no consistence worldwide rule I just continue collecting and verifying informations, asking everybody I know and consolidate it on our homepage....
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
[Last edited by banker07 - Sep 19, 2013 1:23 PM (+)]
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Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
JungleShadows
Sep 19, 2013 1:59 PM CST
Peter,

I agree that there are people who don't follow the rules and those no real way to enforce anything. Of course the people in the know realize that there are ethical and unethical breeders.

In this country, our major problem is this "farm" in Ohio that produces millions of seedlings which they sell indiscriminately through the big box stores here. This is where our "unknown noids" often originate. The sad thing is that it wouldn't take much more effort to propagate some of the better cultivars and sell them.

Maybe this all speaks to again forming a Sempervivum society of some sort so that we could have some body keeping track of the names. The problem with both the Sempervivum Society and the Sempervivum Fanciers Association was that there was essentially one person running and doing everything for both groups. When they stopped, so did these societies. For a society you need officers and a board.

OK opinions on that!!

Kevin

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