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Name: Peter Dieckmann
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banker07
Sep 20, 2013 2:56 AM CST
sometimes there are crested offsets on a named cultivar;

but often this crested offsets are not stable; they come back to the normal form or produce only normal offsets themselves;

this crested offsets should not get an own entry to the database or an own name because you can't increase;

when crested offsets were seperated and selected there might be some few stable which produce crested offsets themselves; then it is a good idea to add an entry to the database with the name S. 'name crested' - it should take the breeder-informations of the normal form;

it is no good idea to give them an own name because it may turn back to normal even after years;

f.e. S. 'Bedivere' often produce crested offsets; I've seperated a lot of them and only a few increases crested; after 4 years of screening now there are some stable ones:







I think for S. 'Bedivere crested' it is reasonable to create a database-entry !?
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[Last edited by banker07 - Sep 20, 2013 3:09 AM (+)]
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twitcher
Sep 20, 2013 12:09 PM CST
Peter, I decided a while back to spend more time working with the unusual forms in the semp world. I set out to acquire as many of the unusual forms as I could, including those that have a reputation for throwing crests. So I have a few in my collection to track. I agree with your nomenclature regarding S. 'Bedivere Crested'. I follow the same convention with regard to the crests I have.

So far, the following have crested for me and I have viable, but not yet stable, crested plants growing. Sopa and Deep Fire have produced offsets this year. Deep Fire's offsets appear normal, but the Sopa offset is itself crested.

S. Sopa
S. Borimere
S. Deep Fire
S. Mauna Kea

I also have Fuzzy Wuzzy, known to crest, in my collection but so far is has remained normal. My Mauna Kea normal produces a couple of crested plants each year so far. Most of them do not survive long, so last year I started transplanting them so that I could provide more attention.

Do you have/know of a list of the varieties known to produce crests? I'm trying to get Weirdo and Whirl-i-gig added to the my unusual forms collection but they are hard to come by here.

Fascinating topic and thanks for starting the thread.

Sempervivum Sopa Crested w crested offset
Thumb of 2013-09-20/twitcher/474e40

Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
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banker07
Sep 20, 2013 12:38 PM CST
Hi Twit

'Fuzzy Wuzzy' and 'Whirl I Gig' were introduced because of their unnormal forms; the normal rosettes of them are undesired but often;

I know 'Mauna Kea' for producing crested rosettes - Erwin Geiger (german breeder) unfortunately named them 'Bizarre Rose'; but the most of the offsets turned back to normal:

'Venus' is also a cristat-producer like 'Bedivere' and a lot of semps-fans think it might be from the same seed....anyway from the same breeder;

then there is 'Rex' from David T. Ford; every year there are some crested offsets - but none of it has ever increased crested longer then two years;

other crested offsets are very rarely, not stable and often a reaction of stressed mother-rosettes; mostly combined with double-, triple and multiple-rosettes; they often seemed to be crested when young;
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Name: Sandi
Denver, Colorado (Zone 5b)
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picklepuff
Sep 20, 2013 10:25 PM CST
'Dream Catcher' also produces crests.
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
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sandnsea2
Sep 21, 2013 8:22 AM CST
Thanks for starting this great thread, Peter!!! Thumbs up

Here is S. arachnoideum Cebenense




Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
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valleylynn
Sep 21, 2013 11:33 AM CST

Moderator

banker07 said:sometimes there are crested offsets on a named cultivar;

but often this crested offsets are not stable; they come back to the normal form or produce only normal offsets themselves;

this crested offsets should not get an own entry to the database or an own name because you can't increase;

when crested offsets were seperated and selected there might be some few stable which produce crested offsets themselves; then it is a good idea to add an entry to the database with the name S. 'name crested' - it should take the breeder-informations of the normal form;

it is no good idea to give them an own name because it may turn back to normal even after years;

f.e. S. 'Bedivere' often produce crested offsets; I've seperated a lot of them and only a few increases crested; after 4 years of screening now there are some stable ones:







I think for S. 'Bedivere crested' it is reasonable to create a database-entry !?

I agree about the requirements for a crested plant given it's own entry if it is reproducing crested offsets. Do you have a photo of your Bedivere crested with crested offsets? I would love to see that.


This one appeared this year. Keeping an eye on it to see what happens. But I think it is probably crested because of trauma. I moved this colony late this spring.


Sandi can you show us a photo of your crested Dream Catcher? Hurray!

Nice crested Cebenense Janice. Thumbs up

twitcher said:Peter, I decided a while back to spend more time working with the unusual forms in the semp world. I set out to acquire as many of the unusual forms as I could, including those that have a reputation for throwing crests. So I have a few in my collection to track. I agree with your nomenclature regarding S. 'Bedivere Crested'. I follow the same convention with regard to the crests I have.

So far, the following have crested for me and I have viable, but not yet stable, crested plants growing. Sopa and Deep Fire have produced offsets this year. Deep Fire's offsets appear normal, but the Sopa offset is itself crested.

S. Sopa
S. Borimere
S. Deep Fire
S. Mauna Kea

I also have Fuzzy Wuzzy, known to crest, in my collection but so far is has remained normal. My Mauna Kea normal produces a couple of crested plants each year so far. Most of them do not survive long, so last year I started transplanting them so that I could provide more attention.

Do you have/know of a list of the varieties known to produce crests? I'm trying to get Weirdo and Whirl-i-gig added to the my unusual forms collection but they are hard to come by here.

Fascinating topic and thanks for starting the thread.

Sempervivum Sopa Crested w crested offset
Thumb of 2013-09-20/twitcher/474e40



Wow twit, now if that little offset will produce crested offsets. Hurray! Hurray! Hurray!
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
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sandnsea2
Sep 21, 2013 11:40 AM CST
Peter, love your S. 'Bedivere crested' ! Great colors!!

What a beauty S.tectorum f/Costigliole, Piemonte Mts, Italy is, Lynn!
Name: Cinda
Indiana Zone 5b
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gardengus
Sep 21, 2013 11:47 AM CST
Reading with much interest . I'm all ears!
Looking at the photos I can not tell clearly if the plants have doubled(twin) and share the same stem or one folded in on itself and a single plant?
Keep believing ,hoping,and loving
all else is just existing.
Name: Janice
Cape Cod, MA, USA (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums Tip Photographer
Daylilies Roses Orchids Miniature Gardening Lilies Irises
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sandnsea2
Sep 21, 2013 11:54 AM CST
S. arach Cebenense
Thumb of 2013-09-21/sandnsea2/1aa762

These are growing on one root system.

Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
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banker07
Sep 21, 2013 2:39 PM CST
gardengus said:
Looking at the photos I can not tell clearly if the plants have doubled(twin) and share the same stem or one folded in on itself and a single plant?


it's one folded rosette - a single plant; Smiling
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Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
twitcher
Sep 21, 2013 8:29 PM CST
Cinda, From observation of the crested forms I have like those pictured here, what seems to happen is the growing point of a small rosette gets doubled, triple, etc. On the young ones, you can often see multiple structures that look like small rosettes jammed up against each other in a line. The plants grow laterally duplicating this, eventually curving back in on themselves. Crested forms growing this way frequently die off, as eventually the growing ends of the plant curve completely under, either pushing the roots away from the soil or not getting enough light to the growing areas to continue growth. This appears to be one of the growing 'styles' that you see with the crests, and I believe it is likely the most common form. The Mauna Kea crests that I have grow this way.

If you take one of these "circular crests", and cut it in half perpendicular to the line you see down the center of the plant, you can then plant both pieces, which will root and continue to grow. This does, however, have the potential to cause the crest to grow in different ways. I have one crested plant that grows laterally across the surface of the soil so far, not curving.

Janice's 'Cebenese' crest looks to me like it is close to the point will it will start to deteriorate because the curvature is taking the growth points under the soil. It is a critical time for these types of crests. Peter has lots more experience with these than I though I've been spending a lot of time watching mine since I've started to get interested in them. My observations are only preliminary as aI need to see more examples and what they do over time.
Name: Peter Dieckmann
Germany
Region: Europe Sempervivums Container Gardener Hibiscus Bee Lover Butterflies
Dragonflies Birds Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Dog Lover Cat Lover
Image
banker07
Sep 22, 2013 3:08 AM CST
valleylynn said:
Do you have a photo of your Bedivere crested with crested offsets? I would love to see that.


Hi Lynn;
I make too little photos....I know; never made some of the little offsets of a crested mother because the big ones are noticed more by other semps-fans;
neither have photos of the growth and evolution of one crested offset.....
I think we should start some photo-series of little crests on their way to an full-grown mother with little offsets;
[url=www.sempervivum-liste.de]www.sempervivum-liste.de[/url]
[url=www.hauswurze.de]www.hauswurze.de[/url]
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Sep 22, 2013 8:31 AM CST

Moderator

That is a very good idea. And twit is already starting that, with his crested 'Casa' with baby crested offset.

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