The best kind of friend to have!

I totally agree, mother nature does not till, the OM is deposited on top. No OM leaves our yard except some thorny prunings. I've seen these principles in action so many times, starting new beds with lasagna methods. And I've had compost piles for years but issues with my back make it impractical to continue all of the heavy work (and multiple moves of OM) inherent with such. So I have removed the compost step and (almost always) only move OM once. I don't think I ever had the kind of perfect pile that kills weed seeds and pathogens anyway. Not that I wouldn't advocate such as the ideal, one has to do what they can with what they have. A tiny suburban yard only has so much to give. The key is keeping it all!

The irony is, it's so much easier to do this than get all of these leaves to the curb. To let the grass clippings fall instead of taking them to the curb. To leave the shrub trimmings under the shrubs (instead of cutting off big pieces, I start whittling little ones off until I get it like-I-like-it.) Bury kitchen stuff a bit so it's not unsightly or an invitation to vermin.

I used a piece of sheet metal that was handy to smother a strip along our back porch this summer. This weekend it was moved to do this same job elsewhere, and after just a few months, without yet adding any new OM to the surface the soil under there feels like walking on a sponge. A drastic, noticeable difference from one step away where it's "lawn."

I got into all of this when I got out on my own and wondered, "why do I have to spend every weekend mowing a ton of grass just because I have a place to live?" Combined, of course, with the desire to have beautiful flowering plants, not just flat expanse of green stuff that eats my time and money for gas to run the mower - and to buy a mower at first of course.

Turns out, we've been brainwashed. I've read and even bought some fascinating books about it. If anyone else wonders why this grass is everywhere, what the impacts of that are, and/or what it used to be like before that, I would recommend including these in your reading list:
The Lawn; A History of an American Obsession by Virginia Scott Jenkins
Redesigning the American Lawn; A Search For Environmental Harmony by Bormann, Balmori, Geballe.
1491; New Revelations Of the Americas Before Columbus by Thomas Mann (I believe Nat Geo channel has used this as the basis for an episode of 'Night of Exploration' called 'America Before Columbus.' I thought they did a poor job of conveying any modern implications of the info presented, and expected this since it's impossible to cover this type of info in an hour.)

What other books might folks recommend?

Is there a 2nd part to the original link of this discussion? It seems unfinished. One important point, at least it seems to be from what I've seen, that she didn't really talk much about is drainage. Tilling ruins the soil structure and drainage but it is so easily repaired (if one considers a year a short amount of time, which I do in regard to gardening.) The tiny tunnels that worms and other soil critters dig are so important. As well as the work they do, distributing the composted bits of OM to the levels in the soil where they will be available/most beneficial to roots. I don't begrudge anyone the desire to till once, to get started, and don't see much harm in it that way. I've never had trouble digging in any bed that wasn't tilled to start, as long as there has been a cover layer of OM in the spot for a significant period of time (depending a lot on weather.) Just adding the fall leaves is huge.

She seemed to be speaking almost entirely about agriculture, although we are taking these principles to landscaping as well. She never did say how modern large-scale agriculture can use the info. How can the need to till be reconciled with good soil structure? Was she saying it's possible to grow 'field crops' without tilling? IDK...

I'd like to hear the rest of what she has to say.

I think the idea behind no-till is that tilling disturbs soil microbes, and if you keep tilling they go away. This year there is a microbiome project and it is clear that microbes in soil--and in us--are more important than anyone ever imagined.

This is an old article, but I think the instructions on how to proceed are still valid. No-till is a basic permaculture concept.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/...

purpleinopp

I am going to assume that you are talking about Ruth Stout when you say "she". The answer is yes, she did start convincing the farmer who owned the property next to hers who had always tilled her vegetable garden before she changed her gardening method to try no-tilling in his fields. I read her book years ago, but I do remember her commenting on this.

She advocated doing just what you described above about leaving prunings in place rather than hauling them off.

Her book that I referred to in my previous post was initially published in 1955 and reprinted in 1971. She gardened well into her 90s. Her books are out of print, so you will have to find them used. She was well ahead of her times.

The one adaptation I have made for the rose garden is that I put the rose prunings in an area where I am not growing roses. If they harbor rose diseases, those diseases will not necessarily infect other plants. I also throw ivy prunings and vinca prunings over the cliff across the road. They can decompose there and won't take root in my compost pile. The slope continues down from the base of the 7' cliff to a beautiful meadow. My guess is that is where all of the top soil that nature put on this slope landed.

Mrs. J. was able to afford to haul in dirt and sod for a small lawn in front of my home. I've gradually been making that disappear. There are two block tiers holding that part of the slope stable and then there is a four foot drop to the street level from the top of the tiers. I widened the top tier from 8" to three feet and hauled all of that soil and sod to the back of the house taking out a hunk of lawn. Then I dug out a bed that makes up about a forth of the lawn to plant a star magnolia tree. I have other beds planned, but I can weed eat that patch of lawn in about 10 minutes, so it is disappearing.

I do have gopher problems out in front, but none in back in the glacier slurry. Even they cannot tunnel through my stuff. The worms are there and doing their part. It's actually kind of an adventure to see dead soil come to life.

I have found that forest duff turns to soil quite quickly. In the forest, I have heard that it takes 100 years for the duff to turn into soil, but that is in pure shade. Once you take that material and put it out where the sun can cook it, it turns to dirt in about a month.

As I get older, it's going to be nice to just go up the road and get the OM I need from the compost bin my friend is making for me.

Smiles,
Lyn

TY, Lyn. In my last, I said "she" in the paragraph asking about a 2nd part to the video linked in the original post of this discussion, and did not make it clear I was talking about Elaine Ingham. Excuse me for being unclear! I very much admire how you are doing what you can with what you have. Going back to an original level, both ladies, as well as both of us were probably inspired at one point by the knowledge that historically, they didn't do it like we do now, whether gardening for ornamental purposes or to harvest edibles, not necessarily a distinction that would have been made at any particular time or place for the average person. By trying to understand nature, we can harness its' power, rather than trying to bend it to our will at our own expense with poisonous concoctions, ruinous methods, and wasting OM instead of using it.

Duff from the forest is partially to mostly decomposed already. If I went to the trouble to gather some, I would put it on beds immediately. The sun baking it would remove the moisture content, which would slow the decomposition process, which slows as moisture dissipates. It would become crumbly after baking, resembling dirt, because it would be dead. Compost like this is the stuff needed to change sand, clay, silt into something plants can grow well in, the forest makes its' own. Removing the moisture content kills the decomposing, live soil organisms, and the moisture must be replaced when the material is put in the garden. Trying to keep a moist layer like this on garden beds is my goal.

Thanks, Hazelnut! I've seen it, that's what I was describing above. I've only tilled a spot once in my whole gardening career. I remember tilled veggie gardens when I was a kid as bare, dry, cracked, and didn't want to duplicate that, but DH offered to till through a bunch of old tree roots for me a few years ago and that was good, once, to get started in that spot. Once I removed the large chunks of root, I put a couple feet of leaves on that spot and let it age over winter.

Here is my newest spot of reclaimed grass, hardly anything in it yet. Covered (green) grass with large, overlapping (brown) cardboard, outlined with the landscape timbers, then very unscientific layers/additions of OM as available. Digging in too soon could be a disaster if the grass isn't really dead yet. Waiting longer = more certainty, more lovely decomposition. The filling was much higher inside the timbers but shrunk significantly while decomposing. I will install a few things I have in pots when it cools off a bit, and will have created a whole 'landscaping bed' without ever breaking a sweat. Plenty of room to stick some annuals in the spring too for a few years until the baby versions of larger things mature.

purpleinopp .....

Thank you for the info about the forest duff. Since I do overhead water the beds during the summer, I am sure it did add something to the beds. As soon as I saw it looking dry, I went out and gathered other mulch materials to cover it as I need to be able to keep the beds moist during the growing season so that I am not constantly having to water.

I've experimented with all kinds of mulch materials that I have gleaned over the years. Some materials work better than others

I am taking a lunch break and will read the links tonight.

I am learning a lot here and getting a lot of confirmation that what I have been doing is on the right tract. As a very novice gardener, I have had a lot to learn. I still do. Thank you for sharing what you have experienced and learned in your gardening lives.

Smiles,
Lyn

That sounds great, and FWIW, I agree, on the right track. I don't always have the same 'stuff' for mulch either, and am not going to go buy bags of it (except as a component of home-made "potting mix.") Whatever comes along, when it comes along... grass from mower bag, leaves of course, trimmings of shrubs, pine needles, kitchen scraps (of fruits/veggies,) newspaper, anything that will decompose will add OM to the sand, silt, clay already there. And you're right, when the water runs out, there's trouble for the plants, and all of the tiny and microscopic critters that live in the soil to make it healthy and alive. Tap water usually has stuff in it that many plants don't like, and who knows how the microbes feel. For sure, nobody is happy about opening their wallet for that.

Digging up grass is really hard work and so many people think it's necessary to start a garden but if they would just do the smother part when they have the gardening urge, simply waiting after that would provide "a bed." And it's so much better 'stuff' than what's left after grass is removed. It was probably not very good 'stuff' where the grass roots were growing, but it was 'the topsoil' of that area. Once removed, the best part is gone, and what's left is less fertile, more compacted, without any life, tilth, humus.

Almost anybody can do it! Not that I have all of the answers, not by a long shot, but I'm happy to help enable, both selflessly and selfishly. If everyone had a beautiful yard, I'd enjoy it more along with everyone else! Sure we need some grass for playing, and mowing around the sides of roads allows people to see so they don't crash their cars due to visibility issues, but I would love to see more mowed areas full of flowers, shrubs, beautiful shade-making trees. Landscaping is expensive and instant. Freescaping happens much more slowly but eventually the results are better, IMVHO.

This pic is from OH, a spot reclaimed from grass about 18 months after starting out.


Here's the back yard from that house, also from '03. This whole back yard was grass the previous spring.


This back yard is from a few years before, different house, also was all grass.


I had a lot more energy back then, and no back injury, so did dig up some of the grass in the 3rd pic, closest to the camera from that angle, but the rest of that yard and the other pics show areas smothered with OM, then I started planting about a month later. (The grass in OH dies a lot more quickly than the stuff here.) Of course adding stuff like finished compost and whatever other OM might become available throughout the year is better, but if nothing is done after 'making' and planting the bed areas but applying a thick cover of the the fall leaves, it should provide a great spot for shrubs, perennials, impulse annuals, even veggies. I grow whatever veggies strike our fancy within beds of other plants. This avoids having pests attacking an isolated monoculture, and keeps things moving around, hopefully avoiding any plant-specific diseases that might stay alive in/on the soil, but, like I said, veggies are not what I focus on, but the ones that are around produce well.

Are you sure the ivy and Vinca can't take root where you are throwing them? There are ways to be sure it is dead before putting in compost, like baking in the sun, or 'stewing' in a bucket of water, encased in a plastic bag (though I try to avoid first-time use of plastic bags for gardening, it would probably take a lot of tiny little shopping bags to contain ivy/Vinca trimmings. IDK how much you are trimming at once. I have plastic tubs I use to contain 'dangerous' trimmings until they are surely dead. Lantana, sweet potatoes, spider plant, don't just die because you trim or dig them up and throw in compost. I wouldn't want to give up that OM so put it in the tubs to die before composting (or using as mulch, in my case.) The more you hate whatever it is, likely because you don't even want it growing anyway, and are kinda irked about the time you had to spend doing that trimming, the more pleasing it is to turn it into compost/mulch. I bring stuff like that home from my Mom's house and DH's Mom's house too. My Mom's agreed to *let* me (after years of near begging) rescue her front yard from an invasion of Vinca that started out as a few plants years ago. Gee, now it's a big job I'll start tackling when it cools off, yay. If I'm going to work and sweat trimming/pulling/digging stuff, that's now MY stuff and I'm definitely (watching DH cart it home in his truck. That's not what my car's for - LOL!) I don't know if I'd be able to make myself do it w/o the prospect of all of that OM I can bring home.

People do come around, Mom asked if she could "have some compost" this spring. If the request had been for something easier, like a kidney or lung, I could of course say yes in a heartbeat. ...but compost? At least she hadn't asked to drive my car, but it was hard to say no to Mom that way - sigh! The last time we drove away with a load of trimmings, she didn't have her usual happy smile. I think she might have been thinking it looked like the start of a "yucky, smelly compost pile" that might be a good thing to have afterall. LOL! (And no, my compost has never been yucky, smelly.)

What a great post. Thank you

I asked about the ivy in the ASK A QUESTION forum and no one suggested cooking it and then putting it on the compost pile. It's the wrong time of year to do that, now, because our temps are dropping and I have stored all tubs, etc. that could be damaged by freezing temps down in the garage. So, this year, it's over the cliff, but next year when I attack the vinca that has invaded the area under the dogwood tree, I'll have a tub ready to cook the stuff

Actually, I don't have much to put in my own compost pile. I have to go and get OM. Up here, it's a case of "If you want it, come and get it." Now, that I have met the guy up the road, I won't have to drive so far to get OM. Since we live in wild fire country, he has to brush his land regularly, limb his trees and remove ladder fuels every year. He's been taking all of that wonderful stuff to the dump's green waste pile. We also don't have garbage pick up and have to haul our own to the dump.

I won't gather any more forest duff, but will concentrate on other materials.

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn, glad you found it of some value, TY. I'm sure it's very different in rocky CO than swampy AL, but decomposition is universal, and I'm all about doing things the easiest way possible. It's a hobby afterall, and I try to remember my original goal of making the yard easier, not harder.

Sounds like your biggest hurdle is finding something to rot. Maybe some fast-growing seed stuff, like sunflowers, Zinnias, basil, vines like morning glory and hyacinth bean vine, sweet potato vines, watermelon/pumpkin vines, could give more easy fodder to compost. Some are even beneficial to the soil if leguminous, like sweet peas. Sometimes I let weeds get bigger if they are of a type that come up easily and aren't ready to make flowers yet, just to have more 'stuff' to compost/mulch with.

Wood debris can be put under 'dirt' to eliminate its' ability to be kindling. If you have somewhere to do that, maybe around the edges of your planting area, it will still rot that way. Someone who has done more of this would be best to elaborate...
- T

purpleinopp .....

Yes, I am adding other plants as I learn what will work in my climate and how to care for them. For now, just having a neighbor set up a compost area on his property for me will give me plenty of OM that I can use.

Wood debris becomes kindling for my winter fires. I heat the house with wood

Smiles,
Lyn

http://www.permies.com/t/5056/... There is an interesting discussion here about building soil.

Personally, if I were in your situation, I would add animals to the mix. For years I have had rabbits, since Im vegetarian, I wouldn't eat them, but that would be an even more sustainable solution. But rabbits make a LOT of very good pre-composted mix for soil--not too hot as chicken manure would be. And to me they are "little philosophers", they never tire of listening to your troubles and dissapating them in the process. They are such gentle little characters. The more hay you give them, the more soil they will make.

Thank you. Interesting site.

I don't have room to raise critters, but I do have friends that do raise rabbits, chickens, llamas, etc and I can get plenty of poo to use in my garden. At this stage, I haven't used much because I have been spending so much energy hauling in OM.

I don't know enough about soil to really make any informed comments. I do know that my beds drain well and are now showing evidence that the soil is coming to life. I doubt if it will ever be the kind of soil you can easily dig in because there is so much rock.

Smiles,
Lyn

I think as long as it drains it will work. There is a post somewhere and I think it was in Alberta Canada about a woman in a situation similar to yours. She posted quite a few photographs. I THINK I linked to it somewhere in this forum, but now I can't remember the source. Ill keep looking. I think her experience would be relevant to your situation.

O.K. this is what I was looking for. Scroll down to the entry by Janetcw. And its in Nova Scotia not Alberta (not even close!).

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/f...

Since she didn't have much soil, she used soil brought to the surface by ants. Hmmm. maybe you could put those little guys to work for you. Here if I put out a hand ful of dog food, droves of ants will come. Now to get them to deposit soil in the garden beds!

Thank you, Gloria......

I am in the midst of fall chores getting ready for winter and doing my fall mulching, so I just glanced at the thread, but saved the link so I could check it out when I am not so tired.

From the look of the photos in that thread, I think all of that hard labor was done by people with younger bodies than mine. I cannot imagine being able to do that work myself, but with Frank's help it might be possible.

Frank told me today that he pulled six logs out of a culvert he was cleaning out on his property and put them at the site we were planning on using for our bed. Most of the wood in the photos look a lot like the slash that lands in most people's burn piles up here.

No ant hills to be had, but Frank may have better soil than I do. I do have ants working in my compost pile. Tonight I even had a raccoon stirring stuff around looking for something he might like. Good thing I always bury my kitchen waste at the bottom of the pile.

I like the concept, but cannot imagine having a bed like that to actually grow things in which was not fenced in to protect it from an invasion of lots of critters. I had been thinking of the bed we are making as a large compost pile. I may have to do some re-thinking.

Smiles,
Lyn

dave said:

Dirt is dirty lifeless dust that gets everywhere. It's what I wipe from the children's face before we go to town. Soil is that gloriously living growing medium for our plants.

Thanks for sharing this link. I'm glad you post news from the PRI website. I'm looking forward to taking the time to watch this video.

As several sites list soil as alive and dirt as dead, then Potting Soil is a scam as that is as dead as it gets.

hazelnut said:To me soil is what you wash off your kids face, and its the reason you have to wash his diapers. its dirt I respect. Microbial, stratified dirt. No so for this lady. So Im willing to listen but not likely Ill change my affection for dirt.
http://permaculturenews.org/20...

Great video - I enjoyed it and learned a few thing.
But I do agree that dirt is what you wash off your hands and soil is what you grow plants in. But call it what you will.

I was taught in ornamental horticulture at the University of Illinois that soil is the decomposed bedrock of sand, silt, and/or clay plus organic matter plus spaces with air and/or water within while dirt is the little bit of soil or similar substance that one gets on one's body or clothing when working in horticulture.

Sounds like a good definition to me.