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Jan 6, 2014 9:45 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
You might blend standard potting mix with bark fines to assure good aeration and a drier surface - but I sing that hymn in about every other post I write.

Can I urge you to consider putting some absorbent cloth under the cups for bottom-watering? That helps me reduce my habit of over-watering seeds, and keeps the bottom of small pots well-drained and aerated. (To be published Jan 14, maybe, or see: http://garden.org/blogs/view/R....)

>> I am really not an indoor seed starting person. I am a buy a seedling already or wait till seeds can be started outdoors type of person.

How do you feel about plastic film hoop tunnels, or a PVC pipe lean-to? Basically a large cold frame to keep them warm enough in late Feb and March. I know you have a driveway that keeps plants warm. I have heard the claim that once tomato seedlings are well up and have a few pairs of leaves, cold nights just stop them from growing, they don't die from it. I don't know if that kind of cold is defined as "45 F" or "40 F", but someone here will know the tradeoff between an acceptable amount of cold and unacceptably strong light.

After the seeds come up, they truly will want a lot of light, or they will get leggy and turn into pipe cleaners with one pair of leaves, and then flop over.

Often sunny windows get too hot in the daytime and too cold at night, but do you have a very sunny room somewhere?

Once you have sprouted a tray or two indoors, a cold frame gives you someplace outside where you can move them to make room for starting two more trays. If you start seeds in small cups, and then pot up to bigger cups or quarts, they will take up 4-6 times more room.

I found that once I got a tray of seeds to sprout, I was willing to carry it indoors and outdoors any time an extra-cold night came. Out for the sun, in for the warmth. But if two trays of seeds become 8 trays of pots, the outdoor area had better be able to hold them until spring is well and fully sprung.

If you use plastic cups, you'll want something like a tray to carry them around in (they do get tippy). Some people like cat litter trays or dishwashing tubs from the Dollar Store.

If it will never have to sit on wet soil, I like shallow cardboard boxes ("trays") lined with plastic from a heavy plastic bag. But if I set that on wet soil, the cardboard dissolves.

I've gone crazy with plastic trays (128-cell trays for sprouting small seeds and 72-cell or 50-cell trays for potting up. Some people use 48 or 36-cell trays. They don't tip over! But I understand you don't want to go in that direction.

>> I don't have a shop light or fluorescent system. Don't want to buy one either. Would much rather buy plants instead.

Wow, I'm the exact opposite. I would rather buy a few lights and then grow hundreds of plants. But it is true that, if you can find what you want, vegetable seedlings are fairly cheap.

Do you know anyone who likes to shop thrift stores or Habitat for Humanity "restores"?
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Jan 6, 2014 9:58 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Oh, thrift store or Restore is a great idea! I'm slipping here, didn't think of that.

I can tell you I have two tomato plants in my greenhouse right now and if they survive tonight, I'll be surprised. But they both have tomatoes on them.

I can attest to the fact that after the tomatoes germinate, they can tolerate pretty cold temps. Not frost, but cold. It makes them stocky. Yes, they will slow in growth but in my experience, they will thrive when the warm weather does arrive.

The APS units are a self watering unit so no overwatering! Yes, they are $20, but I have had some of mine for over 10 years now. Granted, they are making everything more cheaply now, but with care (don't grab the styrafoam by the corners when full of wet soil) they will last. My germination rate using them is much higher as well. I use a variety of other methods as well for germinating seeds but the APS is by far my favorite.
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Jan 6, 2014 11:49 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
HforH is where I hope to find some cheap T5 fixtures (some day, maybe after retiring).

>> I use a variety of other methods as well for germinating seeds but the APS is by far my favorite.

You would be the one whose opinion I trust - how many cells do you think you start each year?

I always want to "make it myself", but at least I should study thatone to see what ideas I can steal.
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Jan 6, 2014 11:59 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> APS (Accelerated Propagation System) units that Gardner's Supply sells.

>> http://www.gardeners.com/APS-4......

Yeah, built-in reservoir, capillary mat, tray suspended above the mat ...

That looks like the ideal toward which I've been fiddling. If the bottom tray was really sturdy, and the top tray could be any 1020-size plug tray or tear-able cell inserts, and the capillary mat was inexpensive and replaceable, it looks perfect.

What I am farthest away from re-inventing from junk parts is the "pegboard" support. Instead I'm thinking about impractical ways to regulate a rate of dripping from above. But I don't see any way to equal the precision of wicking up exactly as much as the plants drink.

The capillary material is at the top of my to-research list, but when you include the design goal of "shall not rot", I probably won't be able to beat the pricy commercial mats they make expressly for that purpose. So far, cotton flannel works great except that it has to be thrown away each year, and it does get dirty.
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Jan 7, 2014 6:19 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Sorry, no room for hoop house or greenhouse. Will just see what I can do with a few seeds.
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Jan 7, 2014 5:25 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
it's probably smart to start out simply. When you find a system that works for you, it will be the easiest possible system.
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Jan 7, 2014 5:46 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Rick, I think the bottom fed mat works better and simple felt works. I fot some from when my son was building speakers for his car and wrapped the boxes in felt, well, the stuff like what lines the trunk of a car.
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Jan 7, 2014 7:46 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Felt! Hah!

I looked at some in a fabric store, but I imagined that water would bead up on it.

I think that's a low-cost possibility, and I know there are synthetic kinds of felt that should not rot quickly. I think I read about felt made from melted-down soda bottles (polyethylene??)
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Jan 7, 2014 8:31 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
I think you may need to soak it well first, but really, anything you expect to wick would be soaked first.
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Jan 8, 2014 2:57 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Rita
North Shore, Long Island, NY
Zone 6B
Charter ATP Member Seed Starter Tomato Heads I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Vegetable Grower Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge)
Birds Garden Ideas: Master Level Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Roses Photo Contest Winner: 2016
Lots of seed catalogs have been arriving. Today the Parks Catalog came in the mail. I will resist buying any new plants or seeds. I have plenty already.
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Jan 8, 2014 3:29 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> I think you may need to soak it well first, but really, anything you expect to wick would be soaked first.

I agree. Also, maybe they need to be washed a little to get any sizing out.

When I ask clerks at fabric stores what fabrics would absorb water well and make good wicks, they look at me like I'm speaking Urdu. One suggested that "cotton absorbs water", No one came close to "microfibers" or had opinions about polypropylene, nylon, etc.

I think that hugely thick, loosely formed yarn would be good for wicks, but all the yarn I saw was wool (expensive) or acrylic, or polyester. And each big hank was $5 or more, so i didn't want to buy several and experiment.

Cotton flannel works for what I've used it for, so far.
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Jan 8, 2014 3:41 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
What about picking up some old flannel shirts, PJs or sheets at Goodwill?
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Jan 8, 2014 4:17 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Sheets, maybe, but I'm hoping that plain fabric will be cheaper than garments, even used garments.

Also, it has seemed to me that the mat needs to be "fluffy" or at least rough-surfaced like flannel, to reach through the hole in the cell and touch the soil mix firmly. Fleece? Felt? Flannel?

For 2-inch-wide wicks, I might rely on finding suitable discards and then cutting into small pieces. But for 1020 trays, I want easy cuts to give me 10.5" or 11" on one edge and 21.5 (or whatever) on the other edge. like 11x30" or 15x21.5".

The last time I got into a thread about this, someone pointed out that they DO make exactly what I want, optimized for that purpose (the manufacturer thinks), and not THAT much more expensive than random fabric. But I like to fiddle!
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Jan 8, 2014 4:22 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
I understand, always, "I can do that cheaper, and better!" Hilarious!
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Jan 8, 2014 5:31 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Thank you! i might spend 50 hours and fill my house with junk and gadgets, but I bet I can save as much as 50 cents or a dollar per tray ... AND save on shipping costs!

Actually I keep hoping that SOME cock-a-maimy, whack-a-doodle, silly idea will turn out to be golden and start a trend.

I wonder if neighbors teased the first gardener to use PVC pipes and plastic film in their gardens?

Heck, they probably made fun of the first person who tried to make wheat grow "near the village" instead of on the hillsides where it ALWAYS grew.
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Jan 9, 2014 7:04 AM CST
Surprisingly GREEN Pittsburgh (Zone 6a)
Rabbit Keeper Bee Lover Cat Lover Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Butterflies Hummingbirder
Dog Lover Birds Plant and/or Seed Trader Bulbs Echinacea Irises
When furnishing an apartment as a young woman, I discoverd that sheets are cheaper than fabric.

And GOODWILL or any thrift shop is cheaper than sheets. Go to the men's large section and grab some shirts, pajama tops, robes.
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarde...
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Jan 9, 2014 2:36 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
[quote=Actually I keep hoping that SOME cock-a-maimy, whack-a-doodle, silly idea will turn out to be golden and start a trend. [/quote]

When you strike it rich, just remember, I let you bounce those ideas off me! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
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Jan 9, 2014 5:14 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Sure thing ... just ... don't hold your breath.

I have fantasies about converting veneer-making machines into something that would turn confer bark into perfectly shaped bark strips and chips that nurseries would go crazy to get their hands on.

And ways to re-purpose mill waste and cloth waste into soil amendments for clay and sand.

In fact, I want to fiddle with fiberglass extrusion equipment and clay-shale-expanding equipment to produce soil amendments or hydroponic pellets shaped like pretzels, saddles and twisty I beams but covered with fiberglass fuzz.

Also as soon as someone perfects either anti-gravity or teleportation, I have a lot of ideas for deep-turning old fields and trading sandy soil in Florida and Texas for heavy clay from everywhere else. And selling Mississippi mud all over the world. Then shipping fresh water from the Great Lakes to everywhere arid in the world.

... just ... don't hold your breath.
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Jan 9, 2014 10:05 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Grantville, GA (Zone 8a)
Greenhouse Region: Georgia Garden Sages Organic Gardener Beekeeper Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Cut Flowers Composter Keeper of Poultry Keeps Goats Avid Green Pages Reviewer
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing

You know I had to read that twice...you have such great fantasies! Rolling on the floor laughing
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Jan 10, 2014 3:41 AM CST
Surprisingly GREEN Pittsburgh (Zone 6a)
Rabbit Keeper Bee Lover Cat Lover Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Butterflies Hummingbirder
Dog Lover Birds Plant and/or Seed Trader Bulbs Echinacea Irises
I agree Rolling on the floor laughing
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarde...

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