Thanks Char. That was very illuminating. I have 3 years of records - I must do it for mine.

I always try to keep written records for things, but do a miserable job of it. I am going to try and document things better though by making myself use the camera more. First flower to open etc. I think I will do better that way than trying to write it down, of course I can add notes to the photos also I guess. Last year I did a poor job even with the camera, but the year before I did much better, that was the first year I really had much of anything in the garden here. So this year my late new years resolution is going to be to do better of note taking and picture taking.

Seedfork said:

"Calculate when peak bloom is in your area and determine how your seedling falls into the bloom sequence." That sounds very exact, but just what does "Calculate" mean and how large is "Your area"?
Have I worded that so it makes any sense?

Really all there is to it is when most of your daylilies are blooming this is peak bloom so if 80% are blooming mid-May that is your peak. Some will have bloomed out already and some will not have bloomed at all (most likely)
If you really want to get exact then you will need to keep track of ALL of your blooms and when they are opened and then figure out when the most are blooming at one given time. Your season begins with the first flower open to whatever cultivar has it's first bloom last. You will want to make sure you do not count the rebloom scapes, only the first scapes.

Here our peak bloom is around mid-May and I believe at Fred's (Spunky1) over in Lillian, AL (zone 9a?)about 30 miles from me is around the same time. Depending on the weather he may be a couple of weeks ahead of us but peak season ends up being about the same time for us.

Weather will play a big roll in all of it sort of like last year, we were about a month or month and a half behind in bloom season because of the winter we had and I can only imagine this year. And just because our peak wasn't until mid to late June last year doesn't mean that is our normal peak bloom season. So IMHO I would keep track of a few years (with normal weather conditions if they still exist ) and then see if it all is about the same.

[quote="Seedfork"]

2) Does each individual registrant determine this info for the plant they are registering based on when it blooms in their garden? This would seem to cause several problems. It seems the ranking would depend on the plants already growing in your garden. If you specialized in extra early plants and all the plants you grew were "extra early" that would throw off the normal midseason timing, and if you specialized in extra late and all the plants you grew were" extra late bloomers" then that would also throw off the Midseason timing.

quote]

Yes each individual registrant determines this info for the plant in their garden. This is usually the only place it is grown so that is all they have to go on. At some point in time these hybridizers have probably grown plants from all the different bloom times so I'm sure they know when peak bloom is in their garden. For example and let's assume I have had normal winter conditions.... so if my peak is about mid-May and ALL my plants bloomed the last week in March or the first of April then I know that these are Extra Early or if ALL my plants started blooming mid-late June I would know they are all Very Late bloomers since I already know when my peak season is.

But to answer your question in a garden setting if you were to grow all Extra Early plants then yes your peak season would actually be different than others because of what you are growing.

tink3472,
Thanks so much for posting such experienced based info. You cleared up something for me that was so obvious, yet I had managed to over look it. The first thing I would need in order to establish peak bloom time would be a written list of all my daylily varieties and the total number of them.
If peak bloom is determined by when 80 per cent of the daylilies in the garden are in bloom, then I would have to know in advance exactly how many I had to start with, so obvious!

80% is just an estimate on my part but in reality peak season is whenever the largest amount of your plants are blooming at one time; it could be a wide range of numbers depending on what bloom time your plants are. It could be 50% to 95% depending on if you have more early bloomers or more mid bloomers etc.. I just kind of eyeball it and if it looks like the majority of mine are in bloom then it's peak season to me.

.

Let me sum up again:
Bloom time is based on the number of weeks of divergence from what is determined to be peak bloom time. Peak bloom time is calculated based on a uncertain percentage of plants blooming in an individuals garden, or upon the time plants bloomed when they used to be grown in an individuals garden? In general when your garden is really pretty, that is peak bloom time?
I am catching on pretty fast to all this daylily stuff.
Of course I am joking, but it is easy to see how a newbie to daylilies is just totally lost when he realizes all the data he took for fact in the data base as he selected his plants after hours of study finally realizes they were all pretty much a myth. He needs ask around locally, see what grows in his area, and then if he wants something new he needs to...buy it and try it!
So, not being a hybridizer myself I see I really don't need to bother much with all that stuff. I just need to get my daylilies and grow them the best I can and hope my garden looks really pretty at peak bloom time.

If we remove the question about what dates each season begins, or how far from peak season, is it possible to answer whether there is any consistent blooming order for individual gardens, or does it change year to year based only on what might be called "cultivar variance"? So, I don't mean start and end FFO dates, as that is dependent on winter/spring conditions, etc. What I do mean is, do people's same cultivars bloom in generally the same order year to year, or is it unrealistic to get a progressive order on bloom times in your own garden on a consistent basis?

Also, a search of the daylily database seems to show that most DLs are registered as being within the peak bloom times (EE to L) with thousands to choose from in each category, but it is relatively hard to find VLs. Even more intriguing is that there are far more dormants listed as VL (246) than semi-evergreen (160) or evergreen (38). I would have thought that cultivars that bloom significantly after peak season would be those hybridized for warmer climates, but the reverse seems to be the case?

I've searched the forum archives and don't find a thread for "latest blooming daylilies in your garden" so I think I might start one. There are threads for month-by-month blooms, but that seems to include a lot of re-bloomers, and may be mostly warm-zone garden pictures, which may not really be the same thing as just "latest-bloomers" in individual gardens. If people would put up latest blooms (not just registered as "late", but late in their own gardens), we could see from their growing zones what might work later in similar areas? No guarantees, of course, but at least people might see what has been "late" for others with similar temps and growing conditions based on their growing zones ...

I can live with the possibility that there is no consistency in individual-garden blooming order as long as I hear that it is not considered a realistic possibility. Certainly, registered blooming seasons may be, at best, a hybridizer-locality guide only, as last year my FFO's were all over the place (below is an edited-down list, just to show the variance). I guess I will find out this summer if there is any consistency for the order in which they bloomed, which is what I am really after...:

Cultivar -- Bloom Date -- Registered Season
Uninhibited -- 5/16 -- E
Party popper -- 5/20 -- M
Happy hooligan -- 5/22 -- Em
Bobbie gerold -- 5/25 -- E
Fanciful finery -- 5/27 -- Ee
All about eve -- 5/30 -- Em
Tropical centerpiece -- 5/30 -- E
Frankly scarlet -- 6/2 -- M
Baby betsy -- 6/2 -- Em
Seductor -- 6/3 -- Ee
Monica mead -- 6/5 -- E
Morrie Otte -- 6/5 -- M
Dixie land band -- 6/12 -- E
Spotted fever -- 6/12 -- M
Whooperee -- 6/25 -- Em
Sings the blues -- 6/30 -- Ml
Rose Emily -- 7/1 -- M
Lullaby baby -- 7/2 -- Em
Tooth -- 7/5 -- E

chalyse,
I love the way you think!

Tina, Latest Blooming Daylilies would be a great thread to start. Living in the north I would be interested in obtaining more later blooming plants.

Tina, one thing to always remember is that a new plant may be a little out of its normal bloom season. Give the new ones time to settle in.
Latest to bloom here in 2013 was "Genesta". Genesta also had the most buds while bud building. Over 140 buds!!

Genesta

Mike @hazelcrestmikeb, your 9/12/2013 photo of Genesta is its FFO, non-rebloom scape, for 2013? If so, would love to see it posted in the spin-off thread The thread "Your Daylily that is Latest to Begin Blooming?" in Daylilies forum

September in zone 5b is impressive!! I think my blooming season is cut short due the the high temps - after July 1 it goes to 100-105 and never drops back again until October, so nearly every cultivar goes into bloom-dormancy by mid-summer, though the foliage stays green.

...the possibility that there is no consistency in individual-garden blooming order as long as I hear that it is not considered a realistic possibility. Certainly, registered blooming seasons may be, at best, a hybridizer-locality guide only, as last year my FFO's were all over the place (below is an edited-down list, just to show the variance). I guess I will find out this summer if there is any consistency for the order in which they bloomed, which is what I am really after.

As with all living things there is a simple answer (that makes many hidden assumptions and generalizations) and a complex answer.

Simply, there will be some consistency in the order in which different cultivars bloom from year to year.

Those who like simplicity should skip the rest.

FFO (first flower open dates) are affected by both environmental factors and statistical/probability factors.

When one first grows a cultivar there are usually only two or three fans to start. Even if all the fans produce a scape there are only three values for that cultivar's FFO. So the estimate of the 'true' FFO for that cultivar will not be very good. After some years of growing that cultivar may have 20 fans that produce a scape. There are then 20 estimates of the FFO and the estimate is a good/close one of the 'true' FFO for that cultivar. What will happen with the FFO is that it will become earlier and earlier (relatively) with the passage of time and the increase in the number of fans.



The figure above shows the FFO (frequency distribution - the number of cultivars that have their FFO at specific times during the year) for a large number of cultivars. The FFOs for one cultivar would probably follow the same sort of curve. When one only has a few years of FFO dates for a cultivar it is likely that the dates will be mostly in the central section of the figure. As one gets more and more FFO dates for a cultivar it is more and more likely that one of those dates will be in the left-hand 'tail' of the figure or that the FFO will be earlier and earlier. That is the statistical problem with FFO dates.

The environmental problem is that changes in the weather can push FFO dates earlier or later. But so can changes in how a cultivar has been treated. For example, if a cultivar is divided it may bloom at a slightly different time than if it was not divided. If it had a very large number of pods set on it the previous year it may bloom at a slightly different time the next year. If it received heavy Nitrogen fertilization it may bloom at a slightly different time, and so on.

It would be simple if any and all of these sorts of possible effects were the same for all cultivars, but they are not very likely to be. Even changes in the weather that are experienced by all the cultivars in a garden may not affect them all in the same way. Some cultivars may start to flower slightly earlier if the spring has been warmer than usual but other cultivars may flower at their usual time. The effect of the weather and other environmental factors may depend on the cultivar. This is called genotype-environment interaction. In other words, a warmer than usual spring might make cultivar X bloom one week earlier than usual but it might make cultivar Y bloom two weeks earlier than usual and it might have no effect on cultivar Z which would bloom at its usual time. The sequence of FFOs for the three cultivars could then be different that year from their usual sequence.

Cool! I think both simple and complex explanations point to additional helpful information. Can't wait to see what people have found to be their most-consistently "last FFO non-reblooming scapes" in their gardens, and any hints they may have as to what conditions put them in last-blooming-place for a given year. For me, this discussion made me realize that my season is very short (last FFO is first week of July!) because of the extreme heat that covers the garden all summer. I'll be keeping my eye out for later FFO cultivars that also perform well in my blast furnace garden.

And, forgot to mention, @seedfork, I love how your great questions lead to more great questions, and fascinating answers!

chalyse,
The important thing is that people are taking the time to respond, they are letting us learn from their experience and knowledge! Thanks to all who have responded.

Admmad, we always look forward to your input.
Tina, in response to your question, Genesta's FFO in 2013 I believe was sometime in August. I got it as a single fan in 2012 as part of a five plant collection on the LA. I promise that my stats will be more precise in 2014. The scape was one of two original which had 140 and 137 buds respectively. There was one rebloom scape that really didn't have the warmth to mass produce. First found out about Genesta by reading Mike Huben's article.
http://huben.us/daylily/Extend...

admmad,
That was a very informative post. Genotype-environment interaction, that was something I had not even considered. I just assumed all varieties would have been effected the same, but it appears there are very few assumptions that can be made about daylilies !

I've been working on updating the garden records, one record is the FFO's that I gather each year. These records go back almost 15 years for some cultivars. There are patterns relating to FFO when keeping records of cultivars over a period of years. I took a look at the Heating Degree Days and Cooling Degree Days for the past 5 years of records on 4 cultivar's with different foliage types and bloom times to see if there was anything that could be seen using the degree day records. Thought I would post what I found for anyone who may be interested in seeing this info.

HDD stands for Heating Degree Days to calculate the heating degree days for a particular day, find the day's average temperature by adding the day's high and low temperatures and dividing by two. If the number is above 65, there are no heating degree days that day. If the number is less than 65, subtract it from 65 to find the number of heating degree days. (high 30 + low 10 = 40 divide by 2 = ave 20, 65 - 20 = 45 HDD units for that day)

CDD or Cooling Degree Days are the opposite of HDD. Calculated the same way, by finding the average of the high and low temperature for the day and subtracting 65 f, if the remaining number is above the base 65 these are the degree units for cooling to a temperature of 65 f. A average temperature of 65 would be zero HDD or CDD units.

I used the DD records for an area 15 miles south of me, there are none for my area (we are normally 5 -10 degrees cooler). The DD record dates were from Jan. 1st to the FFO date for each particular cultivar. The FFO's for the years were the first thing I noticed in my FFO records. In 2010 and 2012 the earlier FFO time was recorded for around 95% of the cultivar's in the garden. Some cultivars bloom at nearly the same day every year and others may have been planted the previous season. Here are the cultivars and their FFO, HDD and CDD numbers for the past 5 years...

Destined To See EVG, Ear/Mid
Year --2009--2010--2011-- 2012-- 2013
FFO ---7/13---7/6-7/14----7/6--7/9

HDD --4544--3757---4701---3920---4467
CDD -75-196----160--151-214

Night Embers SEV, Ear/Mid
Year - 2009---2010---2011----2012---2013
FFO - 7/12-7/7-7/13-7/10---7/13

HDD - 4542---3757---4701----3923---4467
CDD - --75----214--159--165-240

Primal Scream DOR, Mid/Late
Year - 2009---2010---2011---2012---2013
FFO - 7/22----7/13----7/18---7/10----7/14

HDD - 4551---3757---4701--- 3923---4467
CDD --- 97---288--180--165--252


Itsy Bitsy Spider DOR, Early
Year - 2009---2010---2011---2012---2013
FFO - 6/28----6/24---6/27----6/23----6/29

HDD - 4530----3742--4701----3911---4467
CDD - --60----130--97----88---107

(Sorry for all the dashes between numbers. The forum program kept squishing my numbers taking away the spacing.)
Curiosity led me to look at the HDD for each year from Jan 1 to Mar. 14 when I was working on this and see where this difficult 2014 winter placed. With more cold days to come between now and bloom season the FFO records for this year will be interesting to see!

1/1 - 3/14 HDD's
2009-- 3194
2010-- 2681
2011-- 3236
2012-- 2744
2013-- 2931
2014-- 3426

...just checked our HDD's from 1/1/14 to 3/22/14 (today) 3729 HDD's. Almost at the 3757 HDD total for 1/1 - July 2010. See what curiosity gets me, should I or

Char, go take a nap ! You should be exhausted.
They were pretty close.

Cool. I love data Char.