Post a reply

Image
Mar 30, 2014 8:55 AM CST
Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Butterflies Garden Ideas: Master Level Forum moderator
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Birds Cat Lover
This is how I did mine, it might work for you too.

Improving your soil is an absolute must for successful gardening.

Some tough first lessons
It has been said that your plants can only be as good as your soil. I find that to be very true. When I first attempted gardening I knew nothing about it, but we had just moved into a new house with a totally bare yard and I thought that some vegetables would be nice.

Well, I planted tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers and the plants just sat there all season and did absolutely nothing. That was my first lesson and I learned it well.

A little enlightenment
Just at about that time, by some miracle, I ran into an issue of Organic Gardening magazine and a 30 year adventure began for me.

Building raised beds
I found out that my soil was extremely heavy clay that was like a sticky gook when wet and like a brick when dry, so I decided to proceed with raised beds, about 3 by 10 feet each. This is the best way to change the structure of your soil. I decided to double-dig each bed because the soil was so bad. I took out layer #1 to the depth of the shovel and laid the soil to the side breaking it up as I laid it aside. After that I dug layer #2 to the depth of the shovel again and laid it to the other side. The layer #2 had a lot of very large and heavy clods that would not break up, so I got rid of many of them.

At this point I needed lots of organic material to fill the bed so I started gathering leaves, grass clippings, all kinds of plants and kitchen refuse such as fruit peels, vegetable trimmings, egg shells, coffee grounds and any vegetable matter that I could get my hands on. If you have some horse or cow manure on hand that works great too. I put one layer of these materials about 6 inches thick on the bottom of the bed and shoveled back in the soil from layer #2, that was on the side of the bed. I broke the soil up very well as I put it back in and covered all the organic materials.

Then I put in another layer of organic materials covering it with the soil from layer #1. At that point the bed was about 10 inches higher than the surrounding ground and I had a beautiful raised bed.

I mulched it with leaves to keep the surface from drying and forming a crust. During the next 4 weeks while waiting I kept it moist.

The rewards are overwhelming
At the end of this period I turned the top layer of soil over with a pitch fork and to my surprise it was loose and crumbly and contained many earthworms. I was overjoyed! My soil was alive!

At that point I was ready to put in my plants and reap my reward. I planted my peppers, tomatoes and cucumbers at the appropriate time and the difference was amazing. They grew tall and beautiful and bore many fruits until frost.

And that is how I became hooked on organic gardening. To put it simply, it works.

This kind of treatment works just as well with sandy soils or rocky soils, although you may have to remove rocks instead of clods.

Your raised beds can be any size you like, although it is not recommended to make them wider than 4 feet because you need to be able to reach the center from either side. You do not want to step on your raised bed and compact the soil.

Good Luck and happy gardening -- Josephine

The only kind of low maintenance gardening... is the kind you do on your knees.
(Overheard at the Wildflower Center)
Wildflowers are the Smiles of Nature.
Gardening with Texas Native Plants and Wildflowers.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 9:05 AM CST
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
Bromeliad Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Tropicals Plumerias Orchids
Region: Mississippi Master Gardener: Mississippi Hummingbirder Cat Lover Composter Seller of Garden Stuff
You did almost the exact same thing as I with that terrible clay, with the exception of the size and depth of my raised bed. I like what you did and how you described it. Your clay and my clay characteristics are the same.
drdawg (Dr. Kenneth Ramsey)

The reason it's so hard to lose weight when you get up in age is because your body and your fat have become good friends.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 9:06 AM CST
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
Bromeliad Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Tropicals Plumerias Orchids
Region: Mississippi Master Gardener: Mississippi Hummingbirder Cat Lover Composter Seller of Garden Stuff
P. S. I don't have enough years left on this Earth to amend the clay like several have suggested! LOL
drdawg (Dr. Kenneth Ramsey)

The reason it's so hard to lose weight when you get up in age is because your body and your fat have become good friends.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 9:55 AM CST
Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Butterflies Garden Ideas: Master Level Forum moderator
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Birds Cat Lover
Thank Ken, it was like giving birth, a big labor of love. Smiling
Wildflowers are the Smiles of Nature.
Gardening with Texas Native Plants and Wildflowers.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 10:09 AM CST
Name: Mary
My little patch of paradise (Zone 7b)
Gardening dilettante, that's me!
Plays in the sandbox Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Dog Lover Daylilies The WITWIT Badge
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Bluebonnets Birds Region: Georgia Composter Garden Ideas: Master Level
greene said:Yep, you could do all that,
or just slap a raised bed on top and get to gardening.


I gave up on amending clay soil a few years ago. Now I just do this: http://garden.org/ideas/view/f...
Northwest Georgia Daylily Society
I'm going to retire and live off of my savings. Not sure what I'll do that second week.
My yard marches to the beat of a bohemian drummer...
Image
Mar 30, 2014 10:29 AM CST
Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Butterflies Garden Ideas: Master Level Forum moderator
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Birds Cat Lover
That is a wonderful job you did Mary, and it looks just great, it shows that there are many ways to accomplish a goal. Smiling
Wildflowers are the Smiles of Nature.
Gardening with Texas Native Plants and Wildflowers.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 10:30 AM CST
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
Bromeliad Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Tropicals Plumerias Orchids
Region: Mississippi Master Gardener: Mississippi Hummingbirder Cat Lover Composter Seller of Garden Stuff
This is the way I solved the clay problem. These are raised beds over a raised garden and are planted in gourmet garlic. These pictures were taken last November, just after planting the garlic. All the raised beds are now loaded with garlic, whose tops are 18-24" tall.

Thumb of 2014-03-30/drdawg/c767f0 Thumb of 2014-03-30/drdawg/b7e51a Thumb of 2014-03-30/drdawg/14cf52
drdawg (Dr. Kenneth Ramsey)

The reason it's so hard to lose weight when you get up in age is because your body and your fat have become good friends.
Image
Mar 30, 2014 8:50 PM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
@Del .....

Have you had your soil tested ? Some clay soils inhibit the nutrient uptake necessary for vigorous plants.

Just something to think about.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 6:31 AM CST
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
Bromeliad Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Tropicals Plumerias Orchids
Region: Mississippi Master Gardener: Mississippi Hummingbirder Cat Lover Composter Seller of Garden Stuff
Our clay is practically "sterile". Even IF there were nutrients there, the vast majority of plants' roots could never penetrate the clay. Huge trees, such as pine, oak, and cypress has strong enough roots to penetrate, but certainly not the plants we normally grow in our landscape and garden. Water cannot penetrate this clay unless there is a lot of it and it stands for days and days. That then creates a thick, gooey gumbo that won't dry until we have a prolonged dry spell. Then the clay becomes as hard as concrete - literally! We joke here that if one excavated a hole in the clay and filled it with water, it could easily be used as a swimming pool. The water will stand for days and days. I have to build my beds up now down. Otherwise there is absolutely no drainage. Roots don't like to sit in water.
drdawg (Dr. Kenneth Ramsey)

The reason it's so hard to lose weight when you get up in age is because your body and your fat have become good friends.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 10:23 AM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
Ken............

I know what you mean about sterile soil. I have clay soil, but ... and this is a very big "but" ... I also have more rock than soil. Since my slope was created by glacier debris and since the rocks in my "soil" are have rounded edges and not sharp edges, it is easy to hypothesize that the slope is the product of ancient earth movement. Add to that, the house pad was cut out of this slope and I am gardening in the subsoil of this ancient pile of rocks. The gardening area/house pad was tightly compacted rocks with very little soil between them. No plant organics and certainly no worms, etc. Dead soil.

Lucky for me, the rocks actually assist in providing excellent drainage and the clay does hold the moisture long enough for the plants to be able to benefit from having been watered rather than to have it run through. We can have truly hard rains for twenty-four hours, days at a time, and there are no puddles and a week after the rains, the soil is only moist, but not completely dry. It is never the muddy goop you speak of because of the rocks. I can walk on it and never compress it even when it is raining.

But that wasn't what was behind the question about "clay soils inhibit the nutrient uptake". There are, for example, clay soils with a mineral content such that it inhibits the uptake of phosphate. Other clay soils that are dense in iron, etc. So, it is possible that it is something beyond the "clay" causing problems for plant health, the mineral properties of the soil could also be a factor. That was my question.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 11:49 AM CST
Name: Ken Ramsey
Vero Beach, FL (Zone 10a)
Bromeliad Vegetable Grower Region: United States of America Tropicals Plumerias Orchids
Region: Mississippi Master Gardener: Mississippi Hummingbirder Cat Lover Composter Seller of Garden Stuff
This is an old article and I am sure there is more information available, but this is the sort of clay I am talking about.

Yazoo clay: Old problem getting new look from researchers

Published: June 16,2008

Oh, that devilish Yazoo clay. It continues to be the bane of builders in Central Mississippi, making shambles of the best-laid plans — not to mention foundations. The water-loving formation expands when moist and contracts when dry, making it a moving target and a disruptive force in the construction industry.

There is good news, bad news and yet more good news on the Yazoo clay front. One piece of positive news is that many experts say the recent drought and subsequent heavy rains will have little impact on most Yazoo clay, though the portion of the formation that might be affected would not show movement for some time to come.

The bad news is that some of the formation, as always, will cause problems, and there are no new techniques available to deal with the problem.

However, engineers may soon have a good bit more information at hand, as the Mississippi Department of Transportation (MDOT) has funded a research project aimed at taking a closer look at Yazoo clay.

What is it?

The Yazoo Formation of the Tertiary Jackson Group, or Yazoo clay, is a “calcareous fossiliferous mudrock” that outcrops in a northwest-southeast belt across much of Mississippi and in adjacent states. The Yazoo was deposited in a near-shore marine environment and is the formation from which the primitive whale Basilosaurus, the Mississippi state fossil, was collected.

Surface exposures of Yazoo are weathered to an average depth of 30 to 40 feet. Weathered Yazoo has a distinctive yellow/brown color while unweathered Yazoo is blue/gray.

The average composition of the Yazoo clay is 28% smectite, a water-bearing mineral, with the remainder made up of six other minerals. The volume increases are most pronounced in smectite-rich regions of the clay.

The clay’s ability to expand is incredible. Research has found the volume increase can be more than 200%, and is almost always greater than 130%.

Because of its expansive nature, the clay has been associated with cracked foundations, cracked walls and ceilings and “roller coaster” roadways in Holmes, Hinds, Madison, Rankin, Smith, Scott, Newton, Jasper, Clarke and Yazoo counties.

There are multiple factors that determine whether a certain “well” will be highly expansive or not. Depth, coverage and mineral make-up are contributors. The bottom line is not all Yazoo clay is the same.

What to do?

The best way to handle Yazoo clay is, well, not to handle it, if possible. It is exposure to moisture that causes the problems. So, leaving the clay covered is the best bet.

That is easier said than done in the construction business. Dirt work will expose the clay, which means some of it must be removed. A report written by faculty from Mississippi State University (MSU) and a member of the Materials Division of MDOT and presented to the Geological Society of America said the “rule of thumb” for building on Yazoo clay is to remove a minimum of three feet of the weathered rock.

Charlie Furlow, senior consultant at SoilTech, a sister company of the engineering firm Neel-Schaffer, says the key is depth and cover. “The more cover you have, separation of the foundation from the clay, the better off you’re going to be. To beat Yazoo clay, you either need a buffer or a deep foundation.”

Dr. John Mylroie, professor of geology at MSU, points to the aforementioned “roller coaster” roadways as a good example of how moisture can affect Yazoo clay. He says moisture is able to come in through the seams of the pavement, causing the underlying clay to expand. However, the clay underneath the roadway segments remains relatively dry, thus causing the roadway to buckle at the seams.
drdawg (Dr. Kenneth Ramsey)

The reason it's so hard to lose weight when you get up in age is because your body and your fat have become good friends.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 12:10 PM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
Ken....

Interesting article. Yup. You are gardening in oooze and I am gardening in rock.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 12:34 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
>> I decided to double-dig each bed ...
>> The layer #2 had a lot of very large and heavy clods that would not break up, so I got rid of many of them.

>> At this point I needed lots of organic material to fill the bed ...
>> I put one layer of these materials about 6 inches thick on the bottom of the bed and shoveled back in the soil from layer #2, ...

>> Then I put in another layer of organic materials covering it with the soil from layer #1. At that point the bed was about 10 inches higher than the surrounding ground and I had a beautiful raised bed.

>> I mulched it with leaves to keep the surface from drying and forming a crust.

I agree 100%. That's what I did, too, although I removed all the soil and screened out the clods. Then I broke them up. I only discarded them if I REALLY could not breaks them up when moist, or they became small "clay balls" that I couldn't crush. Once screened, amended and mixed, I put it back in the beds.

Add compost, mix. Add compost, fork. Add compost on top. Mulch.

When I don't have enough compost, I add grit and sand.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 3:03 PM CST
Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Butterflies Garden Ideas: Master Level Forum moderator
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Birds Cat Lover
Good Job Rick, my beds have stayed beautiful all these years, with added compost and mulch, of course. Smiling
Wildflowers are the Smiles of Nature.
Gardening with Texas Native Plants and Wildflowers.
Image
Mar 31, 2014 4:59 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Thanks. I mostly use, and repeat, things that I learned elsewhere. My only experience is with moderately heavy clay soil, very heavy clay soil, and clay-and-rocks subsoil.

For years, "common wisdom" added compost and sand to clay. Then it seemed more people were saying "add LOTS of compost!". later, people seemed to be pooh-poohing the idea of adding sand or grit "because clay plus sand makes concrete".

I think you have to, have to, HAVE TO add a lot of compost to make clay at all usable. And keep adding more before the first dose is mostly consumed!

If you can't add HUGE amounts of compost, then (it seems to me from what I have done in my small beds for a few years) that it does help to add some sand and grit.

And mulch is necessary to any soil. ESPECIALLY soil with a lot of clay, because otherwise raindrops will "puddle" the top layer into pure mud, and then the sun it will bake and dry the airtight mud into a hard concrete crust.

Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.
  • Started by: Del
  • Replies: 34, views: 5,038
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )