Roses forum: Can rose offspring color be predicted?

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Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
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keithp2012
Aug 5, 2014 2:08 PM CST
When hybridizing roses can you predict offspring color by parents color?

For example, seed parent is pink and white, pollen parent is white. Does that mean offspring will either be pink or white?
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Aug 5, 2014 3:11 PM CST
That is a good question for @roseseek,
Porkpal

roseseek
Aug 6, 2014 4:46 PM CST
I thought I'd share here what I sent to Keith in response to the question in case anyone else was interested.


The first address is a chart generated some time ago which is supposed to help give you a clue to what you might expect from crosses. Karl King's site at the second address contains quite a few articles which deal with the subject. I've discovered there are many roses whose breeding is pretty much guaranteed to produce predictable colors. My rose, Lynnie, produces huge percentages of pink, very close to the original color, regardless of what is crossed with it. The pigment genes are so strong, they over ride most of what they are bred with.

http://www.love-of-roses.com/predict-rose-seedling-color.htm...

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/rose_brd.htm

Edward LeGrice wrote an interesting article about Unusual Colors in Roses which helps explain how the browns, grays and purples come about, you might find interesting.

http://www.paulbardenroses.com/legrice1.html

So. sometimes, yes, it is possible to predict the colors you should obtain from some crosses. But, don't bet the farm on it! As soon as you do, they're sure to change the rules on you! I hope it helps.
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Aug 6, 2014 6:47 PM CST
roseseek said:I thought I'd share here what I sent to Keith in response to the question in case anyone else was interested.


The first address is a chart generated some time ago which is supposed to help give you a clue to what you might expect from crosses. Karl King's site at the second address contains quite a few articles which deal with the subject. I've discovered there are many roses whose breeding is pretty much guaranteed to produce predictable colors. My rose, Lynnie, produces huge percentages of pink, very close to the original color, regardless of what is crossed with it. The pigment genes are so strong, they over ride most of what they are bred with.

http://www.love-of-roses.com/predict-rose-seedling-color.htm...

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/rose_brd.htm

Edward LeGrice wrote an interesting article about Unusual Colors in Roses which helps explain how the browns, grays and purples come about, you might find interesting.

http://www.paulbardenroses.com/legrice1.html

So. sometimes, yes, it is possible to predict the colors you should obtain from some crosses. But, don't bet the farm on it! As soon as you do, they're sure to change the rules on you! I hope it helps.


Thank you that's great help! Who would of thought gray and brown roses exist too cool!
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Aug 6, 2014 7:01 PM CST
Wow! A wealth of information. However I could not get the first address to work...?
Porkpal
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Aug 7, 2014 7:00 AM CST
How do we save threads? Seems to me there was a feature here where we can clip great info like Lyn's and put it on our own page. Thanks, Lyn. As always, super helpful! I tip my hat to you.
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
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Skiekitty
Aug 7, 2014 8:46 AM CST
Near where you can give acorns & thumbs up, there's a STAR. If you click on it, it'll save it on your profile as a starred thread. At least, if I remember right (which I probably don't) I *think* that's how it's done.

I touched exceedingly briefly on odd colors on my article (where's the blue roses?) and why you don't see true blue, but the really oddball colors are SOOOOOOOOOOO rare to find these days.. I've been wanting 90% of Zuzu's roses (who doesn't?) mainly because she's got sooooooooooo many gorgeous weirdos you just don't find at the big boxes (Grey Hat, Grey Pearl... check out some of the "grey" roses she has.. *swoon!!*). I think the oddest rose that's readily available these days has to be Koko Loco, which, for me, has really been a gorgeous rose this year. They've been holding onto their brown for a lot longer than normal, hitting the lavender almost right before they shatter.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Keith
West Babylon, NY (Zone 7a)
Region: United States of America Winter Sowing Plays in the sandbox Birds Native Plants and Wildflowers Tomato Heads
Vegetable Grower Garden Photography Hybridizer Spiders! Annuals Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
keithp2012
Aug 7, 2014 9:45 AM CST
Is this the chart? http://www.love-of-roses.com/predict-rose-seedling-color.htm...

Which side is pollen parent and which seed parent? That affects color.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 7, 2014 10:11 AM CST
CindiKS said:How do we save threads? Seems to me there was a feature here where we can clip great info like Lyn's and put it on our own page. Thanks, Lyn. As always, super helpful! I tip my hat to you.


Thank you, Cindi. As I've said before, a lot of what I have shared I learned from Kim and other breeders who all know more about roses than I do and from my experience working in nurseries and public rose gardens. When I first started learning from Kim, he spoke a foreign language called "Rose". I had to do a LOT of reading and studying of lineage and classes of roses to even understand what he and the other breeders were talking about. Also, Kim likes to say he "taught me how to fish." He didn't give me the straight answers. I had to come up with them and then run them by him for confirmation. In other words, he taught me how to think to come up with the solutions I use to grow good roses. That is so very cool because I am now growing roses in a climate that he has never experienced. Having that background gives me the opportunity to work things out on my own.

I love sharing what I have learned and experienced, but one of the most important things I've learned is that works in the climates and soils where I have and am growing roses doesn't work in every climate with every roses. There are some constants, but there are also many variables. There are a lot of right ways to grow roses. Much of it depends on your climate, your soil, how much effort you are willing to put into the garden and, of course, the rose.

I am always learning, too.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Aug 7, 2014 11:15 AM CST
What Toni said about starred posts works.
Porkpal
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
Lilies Irises Daylilies Dog Lover Beekeeper Garden Ideas: Master Level
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CindiKS
Aug 8, 2014 5:00 PM CST
Good, thanks!
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

roseseek
Aug 11, 2014 3:41 PM CST
Thanks, Lyn. Of course it helps you were motivated and a great student! The mother (seed parent) is always listed first. Blue Moon X Golden Wave means Golden Wave's pollen was applied to Blue Moon's flower. That, by the way, is what created Julia's Rose.

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