Daylilies forum: feature connected to pattern?

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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 27, 2014 10:15 AM CST
Here's a photo of Dizzy Damselfly as it bloomed for me this year. Great color and pattern, but the effect of petals and sepals curling up in the center is not a feature I find attractive. I think this is called canoeing? I prefer a flat face. I wasn't mislead when I purchased it because all the photos I saw showed the feature. In fact, in all the many photos in this color range and pattern of many different cultivars, nearly all show this feature. It's a feature that seems strongly connected to this sort of color/pattern. Is that true or am I imagining it? Thanks
Thumb of 2014-08-27/needrain/e24657

Donald
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 27, 2014 11:37 AM CST
I don't think you are imagining it - I think that 'canoeing' is strongly associated with some sorts of patterning. Whether that is an accident of ancestry or whether that is a biological association I am not sure but in at least one other plant species those that have a certain pigment in their flowers 'canoe'.

Here is what one researcher found in the plant Melandrium also known as Silene (Flavone V is a flower pigment):

"Plants with only flavone V in the petals had smaller flowers, the petals were narrower than normal and curled up more easily"

Maurice
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 27, 2014 9:28 PM CST
Thanks Maurice. The effect seems so strongly associated with the 'blue' tones and pattern that I wondered if the trait was connected via the genes. It could be that I just noticed on those more than other colors.

Donald
Donald
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
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Gleni
Aug 28, 2014 6:17 AM CST
Yes, I have noticed that with some patterns. I agree it is not an attractive feature Don.

[Last edited by Gleni - Aug 28, 2014 6:23 AM (+)]
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Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
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floota
Aug 28, 2014 8:14 AM CST
I certainly do not have the scientific background that Maurice does, But I have observed this trait of "canoeing" or"tunneling" tracing back to Mort's Paper Butterfly, and some of its offspring, such as 'Gerda Brooker.' Many of these offspring have been used in some of the present day patterns. I think there is a genetic link with this trait. IMHO, it would make an interesting study!!
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 28, 2014 8:54 AM CST
I just tracked back the ancestors of Dizzy Damselfly until I located Paper Butterfly in it. Then I looked at the database entries for relatives and their photos. An interesting exercise, especially when there are multiple photos posted to the database. I'm guessing the trait is linked to pattern and possibly enhanced in certain color ranges. It seemed when the descendants left that range, they often didn't exhibit 'canoeing'. Not always though. It may be associated with a pattern/color, but it's expression may also be affected by growing conditions - e.g. weather and soil. It can probably be ironed out, but not easily. I set a few pods on Dizzy Damselfly and some are up. Maybe I'll see bloom someday. I don't have a lot of daylilies and only about half are tet and not everything was blooming, so even if those bees carrying around masses of pollen messed up the marked crosses there would be limited choices and nothing else exhibited the trait.
Donald
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 28, 2014 9:40 AM CST
I agree that canoeing can often be traced to 'Paper Butterfly' (PB) ancestry but one can ask is that due to some general genes in PB that cause canoeing or is it perhaps caused by a specific gene for pigment or pattern effect in PB's flowers. In other words is the canoeing linked specifically to a pigment or pattern?

One way that one might get a few clues to help decide which type of genetic effect might be causing the canoeing is to look at the offspring (that have photos available) of crosses directly involving PB as the pod or pollen parent with the other parent being a registered cultivar. From the AHS database: plants such as 'Butterfly Cravat' from ('Gay Cravat' x 'Paper Butterfly'), 'Butterfly Eye' from ('Forever in Time' x 'Paper Butterfly'), 'Carolina on my Mind' from ('Isle of Zanzibar x 'Paper Butterfly'), 'Cecile Holcombe Black' from ('Paper Butterfly' x 'Sherry Lane Carr') and so on. One needs to try and choose crosses in which the other parent does not apparently have canoeing or similar patterning as PB, which may be difficult sometimes.

With a large group of such offspring, then separate the offspring into two groups, those that show canoeing (in their photos) and those that do not. Are the flowers of the two groups the same or are there differences between groups? If they are the same then it is likely that the genetic effect is general but if they differ, especially if the group showing canoeing has patterning that is different or flower colours that are different from the group that does not show canoeing then it is likely that the genetic effect is directly linked with the pattern or the pigment or both.
Maurice
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Bearded Dragon young male
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
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Gleni
Aug 28, 2014 5:30 PM CST
Paper Butterfly is an ancestor too of above Day of Reckoning.

caitlinsgarden
Aug 31, 2014 1:27 PM CST
I don't mind the "canoeing"! Looks perky!
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Aug 31, 2014 3:12 PM CST
I have Paper Butterfly and have always like the 'canoeing' effect on it just because it is so different from all the others I have. But if I had a lot of daylilies that did this, I probably wouldn't like it as much.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Amy
Michigan (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Bulbs Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Michigan Lilies Cat Lover
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Growgirl
Aug 31, 2014 5:31 PM CST
ALOT of my patterned daylilies did that this year. It was very irritating! But I have to agree, it does look good on Paper Butterfly.

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