Post a reply

Image
Sep 30, 2014 12:06 PM CST
Garden.org Admin
Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Tomato Heads Vermiculture Garden Research Contributor
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Region: Ukraine Garden Sages
On my camera (Canon t3i), the jpg images are about 4M each while the RAW files are 20M.

My camera lets me capture both JPG+RAW so when it shoots the photo is saves both versions. That's nice but it does fill the card. I can "only" keep around 400 pictures like that on my 16GB card. Still, that's more than enough for all sessions except those day trips.
Image
Sep 30, 2014 12:27 PM CST
Garden.org Admin
Name: Dave Whitinger
Southlake, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Tomato Heads Vermiculture Garden Research Contributor
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Region: Ukraine Garden Sages
Here's a nice wiki on how to use rawtherapee. Lots of great tutorials in here.

http://50.87.144.65/~rt/w/inde...
Image
Sep 30, 2014 1:17 PM CST
Name: Ronnie (Veronica)
Southeastern PA (Zone 6b)
Count your blessings, be grateful
Region: Ukraine Organic Gardener Keeps Goats Zinnias Dog Lover Morning Glories
Annuals Bee Lover Dragonflies Butterflies Hummingbirder Birds
Thanks guys, quite a few of my questions answered I tip my hat to you. Now I know I won't lose quality when I convert to jpegs, I was afraid I did.
I have a 16GB card too and never leave the photos on there anyway so plenty of room when I want to play around.
I very rarely take the perfect shot that's for sure Whistling Good thing for me that I love the editing end of it Thumbs up

Some really great info in the links Janet, Thank You!
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see.
Image
Sep 30, 2014 4:34 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
You're welcome Ronnie. I tip my hat to you.

I think it's worth mentioning that the review Ken Rockwell gave is a few years old now, cameras have come a long way since then. He does give a quite good 'feel' on what he writes, he's obviously had a lot of experience but I have found that many reviews tend to assume that everyone wants to only print photos.

He does mention there is no difference except if you want to enlarge the photo to 100%, then you can see a difference. As I take macro photos of insects I do crop my photos down a lot so it may be worth my trying to shoot in RAW. As mentioned though, digi cameras have improved a lot and the results I get are already quite good in jpeg.

It depends on what you want to get out of your photography, for me I would like a small improvement but maybe not at the expense of the time it would take to shoot in RAW and of course the enormous file sizes do slow the computer up. I have a high spec computer which should be able to cope, and loads of space but the computer would get clogged up so I ask myself if it's worth it in the long run. I can take a lot of photos although lately I haven't taken as many as usual, I don't want to spend more time editing if I can help it.

There's figures on Nikon of the photo size in RAW and jpeg along with load time, the buffer capacity would suffer too. I shoot in Large (fine) jpeg so files are already around 7.8MB which my computer copes with. The last lot I downloaded was over 800 photos but I left it longer than usual.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineu...

Anyone should be able to find similar figures for their camera so they can weigh up the odds.
Image
Oct 12, 2014 7:20 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
I'll ask the question here, too -- does anyone know if the RGB format our Canon camera gives us is a form of RAW? I can't find anything specific about it elsewhere (I've spent the day studying my manual and playing with our camera). I've been turning them into JPG or TIFF as needed using Photoshop. I usually do a "Save As" if it's an important picture so I still have the original with the .RGB extension -- I wasn't being technical about it, it just felt as if there was information there that I was losing when I changed it into JPG or TIFF: The RBG pictures have a standard 180 DPI, but I can make them into 600 DPI TIFF or JPG with no difficulty...

Thanks. MR
Image
Oct 12, 2014 8:30 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
RGB means the three primary colours used, red, green, blue.

http://www.nikondigital.org/ar...

http://www.colourtherapyhealin...

RAW is unprocessed data which needs to be processed after downloading to your computer in order to make a good photo, as opposed to taking photos in 'jpeg' where the camera does the conversion.

http://www.macworld.com/articl...
Image
Oct 13, 2014 11:17 AM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
I'm still not sure I understand what .RGB ("Red, Green, Blue")is when used as a photo file extension. It isn't RAW, it isn't JPG or TIFF... I'm just curious to find out if I can get my camera to take photos with any file extension other than .RGB? So far I haven't found anything in the manual (Canon PowerShot S5 IS) Sighing!

This seems to be the clearest definition I've found so far: "RGB is a file extension for an image file created on a Silicon Graphics workstation. RGB files can contain Run Length Encoding (RLE) compressed or uncompressed images in grayscale or color, and also supports optional transparency." Except that my files are created by my camera, not by a "Silicon Graphics workstation" (which by definition is a computer that isn't either a PC or an Apple).

And I do not know what RLE or "optional transparency" are, either. I'm sure all of this will mean something to me someday, but so far it is Greek!

Well, I will keep googling for definitions and hopefully some of you will keep helping out and eventually I'll understand how all of this will help me take better pictures! Thumbs up MR
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:11 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Update on trying to understand my camera's file language:

I found a new definition: "Color bitmap image format created by Silicon Graphics (SGI); generic format used for saving RGB color images on SGI workstations; recognized by various image viewing programs."

When I went to the SGI web site, I couldn't come up with a search that they recognized for .RGB or even for Photo files, so I wrote to their sales department asking if they had software that utilized .RGB files to their fullest potential. I await their reply.

According to www.pcpitstop.com this http://www.irfanview.com/ is the most popular software to view .RGB files. Is anyone familiar with it? How does it compare with Adobe Photoshop? From Wikipedia: "IrfanView /ˈɪərfænvjuː/ is a freeware/shareware image viewer for Microsoft Windows that can view, edit, and convert image files and play video/audio files. It is noted for its small size, speed, ease of use, and ability to handle a wide variety of graphic file formats, and has some image creation and painting capabilities. The software was first released in 1996. IrfanView is free for non-commercial use; commercial use requires paid registration."

Obviously none of this will matter at the photo-taking end of this business, but might possibly affect how the pictures may appear/be edited after they are taken.

And then of course there is an added glitch if you are using pictures for anything other than online viewing: What you see on the computer is not what your printer (or your printer's press) is going to produce. I have to make photos look completely over-exposed with Photoshop if I hope to get anything like the original photo to print out on our HP Color LaserJet CP3525x... MR
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:23 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Again according to Wikipedia, IrfanView does a better job of working with files than PhotoShop. So I'll be curious to hear if anyone here has used it and can give it a review. I don't need new software just for the sake of having something new... MR
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:29 PM CST
Name: Vickie
southern Indiana (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
I have a Canon S5 IS and my files always come out as .jpeg. So I am not sure why yours would have a .rgb file extension. I will have to check into this further. I don't have an extensive understanding of all the ins and outs of cameras and their workings though Smiling

As an aside, my Canon S5 IS has been giving me "lens errors" and shutting down. I have had it for over 8 years now and will miss it when it's gone Sighing!

p.s. Thanks @dave, for the new Sighing! emoticon. I really am despondent over my camera going bad Sad
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:39 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
You really don't need to understand any of what you mention MR, it doesn't relate to your camera.

What your camera is designed to do is to take the basic colors, do complicated algorithms with all the other information the camera is designed to read, and to make a worthwhile photo from that information.

There is a saying, KISS or keep it simple stupid. Not that we are being called stupid, but I think it means that we shouldn't try too hard to make something more complicated than it is. In truth, digital cameras are very complicated but they are designed so we don't need to do a lot of hard thinking in order to take reasonably good photos.

Camera companies want you to buy their cameras, and each company is in competition with other camera companies so it's in their interest to take much of the hard work out of the technical side of it. It should be fun, most of us are not wanting to be professionals but want only to take good photos. Even those who consider themselves to be professional I think find digital cameras take a lot of the hard work out of photography, but there are 'high end' cameras for such people costing a lot of money.

Digital cameras have come a long way in the past few years and many now incorporate technology used in professional cameras, those which are in the mid range of the market of DSLR cameras. Not only does the camera make a difference to results, but so does the lens used. There are the cheaper lens and those which can cost thousands, the prime lens. Prime lens typically involve a lot more glass in their workings.

There is a huge range of cameras from the simple point and shoot, the prosumer cameras meant to be closer to the DSLR, and a range of DSLR cameras. Unless you have a DSLR the sensor size will be much smaller, the mid range DSLR has a slightly smaller sensor than a 'full frame' professional camera. Not long ago it was said to be impossible to pack too many pixels on the small sensors of 'compact' cameras, but technology moves on and they are now doing wonders. If you have an older camera it probably won't give as good results as a more recent one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

Does all this matter? It does if you want to get better results and if you can afford to upgrade, otherwise one has to cut ones suit according to the cloth. I personally wanted to be able to get huge photos of tiny insects so I sold a heap of stuff on ebay and invested in a prime macro lens, it was the only way I could see I was going to be able to achieve my goal.

Vickie, take the opportunity to upgrade if your camera is not behaving. They are so much better now! It can be daunting to have to learn to use a new camera but the rewards for the effort you put in are well worth the agony.
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:41 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Final google search for today (I've got to get some "real" work done!), again from Wikipedia: Someone named Paul Haeberli invented the .RGB file extension along with some others and that .RGB has "3 color channels." Again, this means nothing to me, other than the files contain the 3 primary colors which I'm assuming any color files have to contain. I haven't found any information at all from Canon as to why this camera has been set up to produce files with this extension. I'm also now assuming .RGB contains more information than .JPG since it can also be "decoded" into .TIFF.

Paul Haeberli came up with another extension: .RGBa which includes "3 color extensions plus alpha" which means even less to me.

Then this site: http://www.imagemagick.org/scr... appears to have more information, but again, I'm not sure what that information is. It refers to an "RGB colorspace" which can be linear or (?). This site claims that it is very important to pay attention to your "colorspace." Does anyone here know why? Or what an "RGB colorspace" linear or otherwise might be?

And what the difference between a photographic image or a "raster" image might be? (cf: http://www.frontlineprinting.c...) These folks always search for RGB images (sounds like a "Law & Order" situation) in order to turn them into CMYK files which are absolutely the only files they consider to be fit for printing. Again, does anyone here know why? I've run into CMYK files, but have no idea what they are. Thankfully my camera doesn't make them... Our printer will only use .TIFF files...

That's it for today! Whew! I'm all ears!
Image
Oct 13, 2014 12:51 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Janet, I see we cross posted. You are absolutely right about KISS. We are probably not going to invest in a newer camera. Although I do want to get the most possible out of the one we have.

Going through all the above definitions may not have been entirely a wasted effort, though. I do think that how photo files are managed after they come from the camera makes a big difference in how they look, whether online or in print. I'm pretty much self-taught with Adobe PhotoShop, with some pointers from the prep people at our printer. And have learned how to take a "so-so" photo and in some cases turn it into something really good, between managing the "curves," cropping and doing some cleanup...

So I would like to learn about CMYK files and learn if there ARE better ways of managing my .RGB files. I will also be asking our printer -- I need to get a new issue of our monastery newsletter out soon. With the possibility of online PDF viewing, I will probably do a full-color original and then turn it into Black and White for the press...
Image
Oct 13, 2014 1:09 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
More on sensors ..

http://www.gizmag.com/camera-s...

MR, I found the dpreview on both your cameras, it might be useful. There's several pages to go through.

http://www.dpreview.com/review...

http://www.dpreview.com/review...
Image
Oct 13, 2014 1:21 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
I found what you are talking about re the CMYK & RGB files MR! Look on the right column ..

https://www.flickr.com/groups/...
Image
Oct 13, 2014 3:06 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Thank You! At least it looks as if we managed to get good cameras! I've read some and copied out the more salient pages from the dpreview site (skipping the "compared to..." ones, etc.) to read later on my mini-laptop.

Rats. I hate creating new accounts but it looks as if this flickr.com is worth a look, so Yahoo here we come. I'll see what there is to learn there.

Thanks for the links, Janet -- I would not have found those. You truly are a "super sleuth!" MR
Image
Oct 13, 2014 3:12 PM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
So is that saying that the photos in her camera are saved as .jpegs in RGB mode? That is what it sounds like to me.
Image
Oct 13, 2014 3:41 PM CST
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Bee Lover Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies Birds Spiders!
I'm not sure what it means seedfork, it does sound like the jpegs are saved in RGB mode but that could be another way of saying the same thing as something else.

It seems the CMYK (CYMK?) is no longer being supported for Windows 8 but are you using Windows 8 MR? If those files are on the Canon Powershot S5is (that's what the flickr forum is for)which was launched in 2004, a lot of programmes drop support for versions 10 years old.

The Canon site has drivers and software downloads, service and support plus almost anything you might want.

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/...

There's a lot of info in the FAQ under service and support but don't forget to click on the 'more' link.
Last edited by JRsbugs Oct 13, 2014 3:45 PM Icon for preview
Image
Oct 13, 2014 3:41 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
"Microsoft Internet Explorer 8.0 dropped support for jpeg images saved as CMYK and now only supports images saved in RGB mode..." (Quote from the flikr site)

OK I won't settle down to anything else until I've got something figured out here. I decided as an example to go to a photo I took yesterday of my homemade plant light stand for my fellow Northeasterners who are all bringing their plants in for the winter. I "fixed it up" in photoshop to this:

Thumb of 2014-10-13/MotherRaphaela/3c8956

Here is the original; ATP will change the size, but I'm not doing anything else to it.:
Thumb of 2014-10-13/MotherRaphaela/f4c2c3 You will need to click on the "thumbnails" here to fully appreciate the difference between the two photos.

And I have just discovered that while Photoshop has always given me a drop-down list of what I want to save this file as, yes, it is actually reading it as JPG. AND one of the options I have (which I never noticed before because I had no idea what it meant and my printer would accept it) is (ta da!) .RAW.

I decided to save this as a .RAW photo -- and discovered that ATP won't read it. So that answers one question. Adobe also gave me this warning: "The RAW format does not fully encode the image mode and size. Among other things, the image may not be fully restored when you reopen the file." So I closed and re-opened the file and couldn't see any change... If I had no other information, I would assume that .JPG (RGB) is a file with more information than RAW...

Unless someone has some new and exciting information we've missed here so far that will create a resurrection, my interest in RAW has just died a natural death. MR
Image
Oct 13, 2014 3:58 PM CST
Name: Mother Raphaela
Holy Myrrhbearers Monastery NY (Zone 4b)
Bee Lover The WITWIT Badge Sempervivums Seed Starter Garden Procrastinator Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
Permaculture Region: New York Container Gardener Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Yes, we got our camera in 2004 so it is beyond the pale. But it still works and we aren't going to throw it away. Canon does have good support, even if the official support dies with this year. I'm sorry I didn't get excited about my Sempervivum seedlings, as a result find ATP and then as a result get excited about taking pictures before this year! But there it is. "There is a time for every activity under the sun..."

I have Windows 7 here. I have windows 8 on my mini-laptop and it drives me crazy. The programmers are (probably quite rightly) assuming most people want to play games and spend their time on Facebook... My only game is solitaire when I need something mindless... And ATP is my one and only social network... Other than that, I use MSOffice programs and QuickBooks to get work done...

I think I've exhausted .RAW as a format. I would like to get a better interface with my HP printer, and I think I'll play with both .JPG and .TIFF. What I don't understand is why .TIFF has more information than .JPG when its only source for that information is a JPG file... MR

Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )

Today's site banner is by Zoia and is called "Snow White, Deep Green"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.