Plant Database forum: Kalanchoe luciae

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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Nov 10, 2014 8:02 AM CST
There are three entries in the database - Kalanchoe luciae, Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae, and Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae 'Fantastic'. I have photos which I managed to post to the first two. I'm assuming 'Fantastic' is a named cultivar, but what is the difference in the other two? I've Googled, but didn't manage to turn up anything. In any case, I think all the photos of Needrain should be consolidated under only one database entry. I'll add a photo of the bloom to the database if I know which entry would be correct. The bloom, according to research on Google, makes my plant K. luciae of some sort as opposed to K. thyrsiflora and is a key identifying factor.
Donald
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Nov 10, 2014 10:09 AM CST
'Fantastic' is apparently a named cultivar. I'm not sure what the difference is between K. luciae and K. luciae subsp. luciae and I may be wrong but I think if you are unsure, photos should probably go under the K. luciae entry.

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=Kalanchoe+luciae&...
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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Nov 10, 2014 10:24 AM CST
Actually, this has come up on ATP before. On Feb 3, 2012 here is a post from Dave:

"According to MOBOT's Tropicos, K. thyrsiflora is a synonym for Kalanchoe tetraphylla.

The same source says that Kalanchoe luciae is a synonym and should be replaced by Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae."

That's what I found on the web also. The trouble with my doing the research is knowing how authoritative the source may be - or not. I'm inclined to think all my photos should be under Kalanchoe luciae ssp luciae. So I'm in agreement with what is in Dave's post indicated above.
Donald
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Nov 10, 2014 10:38 AM CST

Plants Admin

Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae is the autonym of Kalanchoe luciae. You can read about autonyms here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonym_(botany)

Both of these names are accepted, as well as K. luciae subsp. montana. (see COL)

If you've keyed your plant to Kalanchoe luciae, but haven't narrowed it down as to subspecies, the photos should go into the Flapjacks (Kalanchoe luciae) entry as Lin suggests.

PS - Great pics!
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Nov 10, 2014 10:43 AM (+)]
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Nov 10, 2014 10:40 AM CST

Plants Admin

I also looked into Flapjacks (Kalanchoe luciae 'Fantastic') and per the patent it's a sport of Kalanchoe thyrsiflora.

Edited: I should have noted that Kalanchoe thyrsiflora is now an accepted name, as reflected in our database.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Nov 10, 2014 10:54 AM (+)]
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Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Nov 10, 2014 10:53 AM CST
It sure can be confusing and I never know what is correct. The Catalogue of LIfe shows:

Kalanchoe luciae Species - accepted name

Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae - Infraspecific taxon - accepted name

Kalanchoe luciae subsp. montana (Compton) H.R. Tölken - Infraspecific taxon - accepted name
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Nov 10, 2014 10:56 AM CST

Plants Admin

The ever moving target nodding
Evan
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Nov 10, 2014 1:29 PM CST
What about Dave's MOBOT's Tropicos source which says that "Kalanchoe luciae is a synonym and should be replaced by Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae"? It doesn't matter to me really. I'm satisfied that I'm growing K. luciae as opposed to K. thyrsiflora and that's as far as I'm willing to go with confidence. The MOBOT source makes it look like K. luciae alone is a synonym only. Generally, I think botanical gardens have interested and reliable folks doing the work, but taxonomy gets really convoluted so nothing is guaranteed. Since all my photos are of the same plant and the bloom would be as well, I'd just like all the Needrain photos posted under the same entry (as long it's not K. thyrsiflora Big Grin ) and then I'll add the bloom photo to database. It's hard to add anything to the database if you get concerned about being accurate - and accuracy does concern me. Can you move the photos to one database file, Evan?
Donald
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Nov 10, 2014 2:03 PM CST
I went to the MOBOT (Missouri Botanical Gardens) site but I couldn't find anywhere to search for scientific names at their site.

This is copied and pasted from what I see at the Tropicos site but nothing states accepted or not:

Crassulaceae Kalanchoe luciae subsp. montana (Compton) Toelken J. S. African Bot. 44(1): 89 1978
Crassulaceae Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae
Crassulaceae Kalanchoe luciae Raym.-Hamet Bull. Herb. Boissier, sér. 2, 8: 256 1908


The Catalogue of Life shows:

Kalanchoe luciae (accepted name)

Kalanchoe luciae subsp. montana (Compton) H.R. Tölken (accepted name)
Kalanchoe montana Compton (synonym)

Kalanchoe luciae subsp. luciae (accepted name)
Kalanchoe albiflora Forbes (synonym)
Kalanchoe aleurodes Stearn (synonym)
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
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eclayne
Nov 10, 2014 2:55 PM CST

Plants Admin

Thanks Lin.
The Plant List referenced Tropicos @needrain and at this time notes that K. luciae subsp. luciae is an unresolved name. This is as of April/2012. The Tropicos listings for K. luciae and subspecies list reference works and their dates. Take a look at these links.
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/8900485?tab=references
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/8900483?tab=references
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/8900487?tab=references

The COL references the World Plants database in all cases, last updated October 2014.
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/194764...
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/196895...
http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/details/species/id/196895...

We often use the COL both for consistency and because it seems to be frequently updated.
Evan
Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
Region: United States of America Morning Glories Region: Florida Houseplants Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
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plantladylin
Nov 10, 2014 3:59 PM CST
Thanks for those links Evan! I used to use ITIS all the time until a year or so ago when someone here (maybe Zuzu?) told me that site was outdated and gave me the link to Catalogue of Life (COL) which is now my go-to for looking up plants; they do indeed seem to frequently update information.
~ Eat, Sleep .... Play in the dirt ~
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Foliage Fan Bulbs Hummingbirder Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge)
Image
eclayne
Nov 10, 2014 4:11 PM CST

Plants Admin

I tip my hat to you.
Evan

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