Stone, have you tried your smother without the carpet? Nothing I've tried to smother under cardboard (corrugated box kind, not cereal boxes) topped with leaves/mulch has failed to die.

It has to overlap enough to prevent exploitation of the seams, have enough material on top of it that is thick & heavy enough to cause the cardboard to conform to the soil contours, block the light, and be left undisturbed until death is complete. Severing around the edges, down to about 5", especially if dealing with creeping grass, seems to be very important to successfully creating a definite edge where the grass stops. Punctures from rough material will thwart the efforts, allowing growth to exploit the holes, so it's also important to make sure there are no sticks, pine cones, stumps of mowed entities with woody stems to cause punctures under the cardboard. Does not need to be removed to use the bed (once weed mortality is confirmed,) and helps improve fertility, tilth, drainage of soil. Can be augmented/renewed without disturbing existing material.

In the particular instance asked about, I would do this on the inside of the fence/cage, and lay bricks or timbers along the outside edge, something you can use weed trimmer against, so nothing crawls over the top. That would be easier against the flat edge vs. the mesh of the fence/cage. If the thick cover over the inside smother (leaves, mulch, weed material pulled before making seeds, any available OM you want to use) is maintained, nothing is going to grow from under. Sprouts are easy to spot, easy to pull.

I used cardboard before and it only lasts one summer generally. I did use some shingles for a pathway once and there were some issues. They were down for 6-8 yrs if I remember right. But when we moved I wanted to take it out and restore it to lawn. VERY difficult. They had become brittle and broke off tiny pieces at a time and were hard to get up out of the soil (which was actually clay underneath). Would be ok if you wanted it long term and had the understanding going in that taking it out one day might be a chore.
Even if carpet did not last forever (and what does?) it would still last 4 or 5 years I would think and that would be better than most materials. If you kept it mulched (protected from the sun) it should last decent I would think.

I agree. New outdoor carpet, that kind that used to look like green-grass but now comes in multiple colors, will last for years, and if covered with mulch, would last way longer.

purpleinopp said:Stone, have you tried your smother without the carpet? Nothing I've tried to smother under cardboard (corrugated box kind, not cereal boxes) topped with leaves/mulch has failed to die.

Please let me know when you've had some experience with the particular plants I mentioned.

your method might work nicely with an annual like Phyllanthus urinaria...

But would only encourage the plants I mentioned... which scoff at being pulled...

Hmm
another plant that might perish under the carpet would be Houttuynia cordata... which, believe me... you do not want in the garden....

I don't think that cardboard concept would even work on mint or monarda... And the ones I mentioned are far worse...

It's very interesting pulling up several layers of cardboard, and seeing where the spreaders have rooted all through the cardboard...

Edit:
I potted up some Tragia urticifolia this year for observation...
http://stonethegardener.tumblr...
You would not want to attempt hand pulling that spreader... :)

Let me know if you'd like some stachys...
http://oak.ppws.vt.edu/scott/w...
I've been deliberately planting it in the new garden for those tubers... But it's a bear!

We tried carpet strips...they were great for stopping erosion at the swale edge...not so great on flat ground for many of the reasons stated above.

When we moved to this house, there was a roll of "tar paper" Builder's felt left on a shelf in the back shed. It worked very well for establishing walkways and borders. It may work well for you as it is relatively inexpensive, easy to cut with (old ) scissors, lasts a long time, (we used a layer of cardboard under a double layer of the felt and topped it with gravel for the walkways) and is fairly easy to work with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

@Moonhowl, I'm glad you mentioned the tar paper.

Many times tar paper can be obtained for free. People do a repair job and discard the leftovers. I have picked up 3 rolls of tar paper in the past 3 years. Cut the tar paper to fit; double layer if necessary. I place bricks or concrete blocks on top of the tar paper. This makes a good weed barrier around trees, planting beds, along fence lines (well, not if you have 90 acres of the stuff ) and if the brick/block is put down correctly, one can even use the lawnmower and skip using a weed eater.

For weeds that try to crawl under the barrier, you can use a trenching tool and place a folded piece of tar paper (or aluminum flashing) vertically to stop the weeds from spreading.

Edit to add: I am not sure if 'trenching tool' is the correct term; the flat shovel used for edging is the one I refer to. Sorry.

I've smothered some pretty tough customers, definitely mint, nutgrass, & Bermuda... asparagus fern, bahiagrass, baby walnut, oak & pecan trees, wild berry & honeysuckle vines, Nandina, Vinca major, Conoclinium, Allium canadense, Chinese elm, and countless others whose names will never be known. Success rate to date = 100%. Without light, any plant will die once it has exhausted its' energy reserves.

I didn't get the impression there were any notoriously difficult species like Houttuynia cordata in question in this discussion. But if any shows up in my yard, I have no doubt that I can smother it if, for some reason, I don't notice that it's sprouted for so long that it can't be pulled out.

Once smothered, an area is pristine. Nothing is growing there. Digging a hole to plant something can cause a buried seed to be able to sprout, (which would be noticed by me & pulled,) but aside from that, any new sprouts from wind-blown or critter-dropped seeds would be on the surface. Easy to notice & pull (or just add another smother layer if it's a whole outbreak patch of something.)

Annual weeds should only be a problem once. Pull, mow, or smother before they create & drop the next years' crop of seeds. Break the cycle. I've never had any problems with seed-weeds like that because I always start a new bed with cardboard, then pull anything voluntary, that I didn't put there. Maintaining a clean slate would be much more difficult if not starting that way.

For years, (until we moved this past April,) this is what was on the other side of CL fence, upwind most days. There were definitely unwanted sprouts on my side, but I never spent more than 5-10 minutes per week patrolling, pulling as I walk around the yard and enjoy/inspect the plants.


Yes, organic mulches/smothers deteriorate, are not permanent, but I've never heard of an alternative barrier that IS permanent besides paving the spot. After doing it for about 30 yrs total in 2 diff states, I recommend smothering/mulching because it's free, incomparably easy, improves the ground, & I know it works. Every fall, I rake leaves onto the nearest bed area to keep things going:
http://permaculturenews.org/20...

I love the way all of this coincides with spending the least amount of time, effort, and $ in regard to maintenance. For me, all 3 of these things would best be spent on the more fun parts of gardening, buying & manipulating the plants, so whatever methods can do that for me are what I use. I share so enthusiastically and in such detail because I would never have the ability to have "flower beds" or maintain a mowed yard without doing these things, something about which I'm very passionate and exuberantly enthusiastic because of the results I've seen. I'm a person of very small stature, very little strength, and until a few yrs ago, a single mom with full-time job. I wish everyone the best in finding the methods that work as well for them, and to achieve a comparable state of satisfaction with their yard/garden.

No weeds, just plants with a purpose. One of my favs, from when I lived in OH, about 13 yrs ago. I did buy some mulch to get this going.

Frillylily said:I hate carpet. what smart person thought of putting cloth on the floor anyway !

ME !!! It gets cold up here in winter and area rugs are not enough of of an insulation. Bare floors are also much more work to keep clean when you heat with wood. No. I am not dumb. I'd rather have carpet than be cold.

Actually, I am having my carpet replaced this month and talked with Dave about using carpet as a weed barrier. He told me he first learned about it when a customer came in several years ago and ordered strips of indoor/outdoor carpeting for both her very large vegetable garden and her berry patch. Her son is still using the same carpet.

Dave, at the Floor Store, adopted her idea for his own large vegetable garden and told me he hasn't had to do any serious weeding in years. Sounds like a good recommendation to me.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'm with you on carpet, vs. the cold floors, Lyn. I have arthritis in my feet and can't walk around even in my socks on our tile floors, either winter or summer (when they are "nice and cool" from the a/c). We have nice warm cushy carpet in our bedroom and other areas where we walk in our bare feet.

That being said, I love my sisal area rugs for collecting and hiding all the dirt I track in from the garden. It brushes off my shoes and falls through the rugs onto the tile. Then I can just vacuum it up at my leisure.

Sisal, and seagrass rugs make good weed barriers, covered with mulch, and then of course they obligingly disappear in a year or three in our hot, humid garden.

After it grew a lovely crop of black algae on our patio, we relegated an "outdoor" rug over to the Sailing Squadron where we store our little sailboat. We spread it out and park the boat on it so we don't have to mow and weed, and it has only lasted about 3 years, with now weeds coming up through it quite easily. Probably would have lasted better if we'd spread mulch on top of it.

well for fun, those who have big piles of money ha ha
they use in floor radiant heat. Wouldn't that be nice ! I guess cold floors never bothered me because I wear shoes from the time I get out of bed to the time I get back in it. I cannot stand to take even a few steps with bare feet!

the thing about invasive weeds, even if you kill them out with the cardboard, the cardboard will only last for a season or so. Then you have to replace it or the weeds come back. the original plants may be dead but thousands of their seeds are everywhere in the soil and will return so rapidly they can't be controlled. I dug a bunch of invasive grass out of a bed last summer but in no time it was full of seedlings. so many I couldn't keep them out. By putting something more permanet down, it will be several years before having to deal w that again. I did not think of using the indoor outdoor carpet. I think it is relatively cheap to buy new even. Considering it comes in probably 6 or 12 ft lengths and an average pathway would be 2-3 ft wide, you could get several runs for the money.