Daylilies forum: Strong Scapes

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 1:15 PM CST
One of the most popular features for daylilies according to the feedback I have received is good sturdy scapes that are capable of holding the blooms (especially large blooms) up high and not letting them droop.
So in trying to run searches for such plants I have not been able to find much in search terms that will allow me use that feature. Is it correct to say that diploids normally have weaker scapes, and tets have stronger scapes? How do others search for this trait. It sure would be nice to have that feature in the ATP data base, because it seems very important to most of us. Have I over looked it somewhere?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 1:23 PM CST
Do daylilies with multiple branching normally have stronger scapes?
Name: Jon Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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jon
Jan 15, 2015 1:25 PM CST

Plants Admin

That would be nice info to have, but most of the info that ATP gets for daylilies if from the AHS, and it doesn't have the data for how strong a scape is.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 1:35 PM CST
Your right, but with all the daylily people here, if there was a check box for strong scapes and non-fading blooms maybe we could get that info made available. I am just so aggravated with the lack of detail given by catalogs, the lack of search ability provided at the sites is really frustrating when trying to research plants in advance. Looking through the forums and seeing the popular preferences for daylilies these actually seem to be two of the more important traits.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Jan 15, 2015 2:02 PM CST
I think the lack of detail may be because different growing conditions produce different results for the same cultivar. A strong scape when grown in sun and a floppy scape if grown in shade, e.g. Weather, light, wind all affect a plant when it wakes up from dormancy and how it grows. With the erratic conditions that are often served up during a growing season in my location, there are not many plants that don't behave differently in different years depending on what they were served that year. That even includes native plants. It would be really hard to plug in a characteristic and say with certainty that is how a plant will perform.
Donald
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 2:17 PM CST
Yes that is very true, but yet we list plant height, bloom size, foliage type, even bloom time, etc.
Now we all know that those traits also depend on all the normal variances. That same argument is used against listing rust resistance, but finally it made the data base. I know just by my own garden, rust resistant is not accurate for all plants, but it is a good guide (I do feel some plants are overall more resistant to rust). If different strains of rust end up showing more divergence that might make that info less reliable, but I think useful for now. I would be fine with listing "scape strength", or what ever term is derived for stout scapes, as found in full sun conditions relative to other plants in the same garden. That would not cover all the different circumstances (none of the traits do) but it would be very useful I feel. The same for non fading blooms.
Thought this was interesting:
http://www.daylilies.org/AHSfaq2.html
What is the right daylily for my garden, and there first item was color fastness!
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jan 15, 2015 2:56 PM (+)]
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South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Jan 15, 2015 3:45 PM CST
Info on scape strength would be interesting and useful, but I also think it would be hard to quantify. At least wrt budcount, branching, bloom size, and scape height, you can put numbers on it. Traits like EMO, CMO, substance, and sun fastness are pretty clearly a yes/no. (I am trying to decide if sun fastness and color fastness are the same... Does pigment loss from thrips count as not being color fast? Can rain affect color fastness?)

But how would you judge scape strength? Upright? Leans? Leans HOW MUCH?

For what it's worth, I feel flower substance is more important than sun fastness... A faded flower can still be somewhat attractive, but no flower with disintegrating edges will be.
The current avatar image is that of a volunteer daylily seedling showing cristation.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 3:54 PM CST
Well, using rust resistance an an example:
I think both scape strength and color fastness and even flower substance could be shown on a scale, +1-5 for positive values and - 1-5 for negative values.
Sure that would not be exact but very useful I feel.
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Frillylily
Jan 15, 2015 5:36 PM CST
Well I think this is where the comments section comes in handy. Would be nice if people would post how a plant does for them and their growing conditions if they deviate from the standard. For example
"I grow ABC plant in my zone 6 yard, it is in shade until around noon and full sun after that and my soil is well draining. The scapes are thin and sometimes flop or break off at the base if I don't stake them".

In my garden if I don't plant Webster's Pink Wonder, Moonlight Orchid and Yellow Mammoth in a sheltered location, the wind will break off the petals. I found they do best on the east side of my house where they are sheltered and have sun on them first thing every day.

I think a pic is worth a million words too, way too many pics in the data base of blooms up close, but not as many of the clump-the branching, leaf habits, bud count, scapes ect. I too am guilty of snapping pics of a pretty face, do not usually think to take pics of the clump itself or to add comments.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 5:43 PM CST
Yes I agree about the comments, I know myself how few people actually post comments, it would be so much easier to check a box. I keep saying I will post more comments but only having grown a few daylilies and only for a short two or three years, I have found it would take at least three years for me to grow a plant and make any meaningful comments, but that would be the same for checking the boxes also. The main value of just checking the boxes is that it would become searchable along with all the other data. that is the key point here for me.
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
Jan 15, 2015 5:49 PM CST
needrain said:I think the lack of detail may be because different growing conditions produce different results for the same cultivar.


I agree totally with this. I grew some of my daylilies in Utah to begin with. Several had weak scapes on them, and they always flopped. I moved them to Idaho with me, to give them one more chance, and the scapes almost doubled in size on them. So, I really think it depends on where the daylily is grown, at least for some of them. Everything else about the plant remained the same. The only difference was the scape.
Natalie
[Last edited by Natalie - Jan 15, 2015 6:08 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 6:05 PM CST
Yes, it is true that the scapes in Utah were weaker than when the plants were moved to Idaho, but comparing the weak scapes in Utah to the other daylilies in the same garden, how would you rank each plant. Comparing the strong scapes in Idaho how would you rank them compared to the other plants in that garden. That is the same way dorant, semi-evergreen, and evergreen is ranked, by how they do in the garden it is being grown in , weather it be Florida or Wisconsin.
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers
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Natalie
Jan 15, 2015 6:16 PM CST
I don't think an evergreen is going to be a complete dormant in a northern garden, so that is kind of a tough one to compare. I grow a few evergreens, and while they look mostly dormant, they have never gone completely dormant. Some of them just learn to deal with the cold and snow, and get mushy, but still have some green on them. Not sure about dormants in a southern garden, but all of my dormants have gone completely dormant, as they should. Scape strength would be a harder one to stick on a plant for me, since I've seen a huge difference, depending on where they were growing. For the most part, the scapes that were strong in Utah have remained just as strong in Idaho. The ones that were weak in Utah are now strong in Idaho. I was in zone 5a there, and 7a here, so I know that made the difference. My way of growing them, as far as fertilizing and watering, are exactly the same, so the only difference I can see is that being warmer is better for the ones that I have. That doesn't mean it works that way for all of them though.
Natalie
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 15, 2015 6:46 PM CST
Dormants in my garden just vanish, a lot of them never to return, but the majority do come back in the spring.
Name: Maryl
Oklahoma (Zone 7a)
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Maryl
Jan 17, 2015 12:06 AM CST
I've had a few daylilies that had weaker scapes then others. Nothing too horrible, and mostly (but not totally) on newly planted daylilies. I would say that a 2- 3 year wait and see period may be in order before we declare a daylily's scapes to be inherently weak....As to Sunfast versus Colorfast I can site a couple of examples of the difference from my own experience. By my definition sunfast refers to the substance of a daylily, whereas colorfast refers to it's color. America's Most Wanted had good substance that held up well in our hot summers. But the beautiful yellow coloring was totally bleached out to almost white by days end. It was Sunfast, but not Colorfast. In contrast Citrix retained its color throughout most of the day, but was a limp dishrag by early afternoon. So Citrix to me was Colorfast but not Sunfast......When I first got into daylilies, outside of rust, these other issues were seldom mentioned. It's nice to get a new pair of eyes asking new questions.........Maryl
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Jan 17, 2015 3:00 AM CST
I had always thought of "sunfast" as to whether or not the color bleached out, or ran and slicked, due to exposure from sun...

...and substance was just plain substance... affected by whatever type of weather...

...now I'm getting confused... Confused
The current avatar image is that of a volunteer daylily seedling showing cristation.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Jan 17, 2015 8:41 AM CST
Being fairly new to daylilies I understand actual physical attributes we are discussing but am confused at to what the correct terms should be. I do see that both the fading of the color and the "fading" of the substance of the flower could be considered "Sunfast". Destruction of the substance by wind or rain, even though it causes destruction of the substance of the bloom would not. I guess we would all like our daylilies to have enough substance to stand up against the wind and the rain also. I looked at the AHS site to get a better idea of the terms used but did not find a definite answer.
Is there a more descriptive term used for these two attributes, "Sunfast" and "Substance", or is good enough just to describe the physical results, "Blooms that don't fade in the sun, and/or that don't lose there substance in the sun."
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Feb 10, 2015 10:20 AM CST
Ok, I have been thinking about scape strength and am wondering if scape diameter might be a reliable measure for strength? Any opinions?
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Feb 10, 2015 12:02 PM CST
It makes sense that a larger diameter scape should be stronger. It's a trait that is probably harder to evaluate than it would seem. When you live in an area that tends to have windy conditions much of the time, the evaluation would be much different than from areas with little wind. Today it will reach into the 80sF and officially the wind is steady at 21mph gusting to 27mph. I have never been convinced that any plant really manages stalks for high winds. They do better if those stalks grow in constant windy conditions, but they are not full proof against it anytime. Today's conditions are not particularly unusual or excessively high for my location. Glare
Donald
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers
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Natalie
Feb 10, 2015 12:31 PM CST
Donald, I have the same wind issues here. It very seldom stops blowing, because we live in a river canyon. And, it can get rather gusty at times. I haven't seen any of my scapes cave in under it either, which makes me happy!
Natalie

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