Given the alternative of planting later in the summer, Joe, I'd go with 2 months. I've done it before with martagons with success.

Joebass said:Paul please expound further on Joe Hoell's no cold period method! What happens and why was it amazing? Thanks.

G'day Joe--Joe Hoell's method of NO cold period with the delayed hypogeal seed of oriental species and their hybrids was simply, after the 3 month warm period, he would immediately remove the tiny bulblets from their baggies and expose them to morning light and air by placing them on top of fresh (green) wet sphagnum moss(uncovered) and within 2 days they sent up their first leaf,often the bulblet and roots turning a bright green.Proving that under certain conditions, they don't need a cold period to break dormancy.

I decided last year to give it a go.Since being at this property for the last 4 years and not having the facilities in previous years, I found that I lost an unacceptable amount of first year oriental seedlings, mainly due to wind.So I thought how can I modify Joe's experiment to suit my needs.Joe identified the cause and effect--- light and exposure to air after warm period = immediate leaf growth.

This is what I did.Seed was soaked for not more than 5 days (Joe did not soak) then placed in a baggie with damp vermiculite--1small handful, making sure seeds were at the bottom and only lightly covered.Baggies left at room temperature less than 18c.This was on 30 May 2014. Beginning of Sept, they were relocated to a well lit window area, spaced out so all baggies got direct light. With me, leaf development began within 2 weeks and at about 1 cm length,(24 Sept 2014) I started to add DRY sterilised seed raising mix to about 2.5cm deep (1 inch).It had to be dry, or you risk breaking the fragile leaf growth.This soil was later sprayed damp.On each bag, I wrote the number of leaves that commenced growth before the addition of soil and recorded the info in the breeding book. I had decided to attempt as much growth as possible keeping them in the baggies, so they were moved to my makeshift orchid house.The only one that did not break dormancy, and a very special one at that, was martagon distichum (they are ok, just dormant still). By keeping them growing "in the green" in the baggies for maybe 9 months, I will avoid the first year losses due to wind and get at least an extra 3 months growth.
And yes, I was amazed that it was so easy and have never had such growth on first year oriental seedlings.Check out the pictures taken in the last day or so.
This was easier than Joe's method, but the same principle.Forgot to mention, bags left open (after the warm period), bottom corners snipped (tiny cut) and holes poked through the bottom with a satay stick.
The scientific explanation was reported in the British scientific journal ''Nature'' and you may read Joe's article in the 2005 NALS Year Book.

Thanks so much, Paul, for explaining in detailed method.

You say "sterilized seed raising mix". Do you sterilize yourself, or do you mean pasteurized out of the bag?

What other species of hypogeal seed have you tried?

A couple things raised questions in my mind in Hoell's article (2005):
- He mentions the brown peat moss (the partially decomposed sphagnum) as being too acidic at around pH 4.5-5, and that is one reason why he used fresh green sphagnum. I always thought fresh sphagnum was more acidic. And as an aside, I was under the impression that sphagnum was hard to get in Tasmania, and it would follow that live sphagnum would be next to impossible (?). Any idea which species of sphagnum it is?

- I wondered also if the high acidity might also be a factor in breaking leaf dormancy, which Joe Hoell did not address. But your use of vermiculite, usually with an alkaline (or at least neutral) pH, proves it's inconsequence.

"There is no possibility of vernalization and yet all the lilies grow well and flower. The trumpet hybrids and L. henryi pay little attention to the calendar: there are
stalks at all stages of growth every month of the year. Other species that have flowered here without vernalization include LL. leucanthum, regale, sargentiae(which three are permanent), and LL. concolor, pumilum, and wardii" ...

..."Of course, we are told that all these lilies need vernalization. My experience is that a bulb which has not had a cold period in its first year will not require a cold period to break dormancy" Growing lilies in Guatemala page 67-70, LILIES and Related Plants 2009-2010

William---this is true. The lilies the author mentions do not necessarily need vernalization. But, we must be careful in the way we define vernalization in the context of the way we think of it and the way we use vernalization to our benefit or necessity. You see, in Guatemala there is basically only one season. That's why when the author mentions L. henryi having stems of various heights that can bloom at anytime during a calender year depending on the weather, he's correct. All Div. VI material derived from L. henryi need little or no vernalization to grow but they will need a rest period between blooming cycles. But it doesn't have to be in the context of "cold temperatures' as most people associate vernalization with.

On the other hand, people like Lorn and William in the northern latitudes have four seasons. And we need and want our Div. VI Trumpets and Aurelians and certain other Species to bloom during the summer season. In order to accomplish that, we must use vernalize at least once to allow the plant to set it's internal time clock to our climate zone. And then once acclimated it will grow and bloom according to the gardener's climate zone. But, again, it doesn't have to be those icy cold temperatures of vernalizing Asiatics derived from L. davidii that most people think. The author could never bloom Asiatics without man made refrigerated vernalization.

At 1700m altitude, I'll bet the author would have some success at growing Oriental Trumpets and Longiflorum Asiatics as well. This is an interesting publication, by the way.

I noted long ago the interesting bulb growth of Lilium formosanum and L. philippinense. Even in cold Minnesota, evidence of the inconsequence of vernalization is seen when I dug these bulbs in the fall. The bulb growth pattern is a little different, and more closely resembles a very abbreviated rhizome rather than concentric growth, with a new bulb structure arising at the side of the old bulb. rather than in the center. When I dug bulbs in the fall, these new bulbs would vary in size, and some would have underground sprouts of various lengths, too. This, in fact, is the growth pattern behind the everblooming lily in breeding (L. ×formolongi).

(Sorry, no pics of this. This personal learning foray was long before digital photography. )

I think Connie was using somewhat the same method, which I tried, with great success..

Hi Rick, been pretty tied up for two weeks.
In reply to a few of your questions--It seems the the main variety of sphagnum in Tasmania (and New Zealand) is cristatum.It is not extensively harvested in Tassie, but at certain times orchid growers offer it fresh in limited quantities.When I lived on the island, it was on my property and certainly you would not have to search very far to find it.I don't know the brand name of the brown moss that Joe referred to, or where it came from.The commercial brown moss that I use comes from Estonia and is in a compressed 225 litre bale.
The only species that I have tried with the no cold method are japonicum, rubellum and platyphyllum.All been successful. The "sterilized seed raising mix" should have read'' pasteurized commercial seed raising mix."
Will you be trying a few seeds with this method?

vanozzi said:Hi Rick, ....
Will you be trying a few seeds with this [no cold period] method?

Oh yes! And I will try some martagons, too, since I'll likely have lots of seed.

I got to thinking more about the sphagnum, and got a little curious....
---- Minnesota has 33 Spahgnum species!

The Ledebourii seedlings are throwing up their first leaves today!

Exciting!