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May 4, 2015 7:29 AM CST
Name: Elaine
Sarasota, Fl
The one constant in life is change
Amaryllis Tropicals Multi-Region Gardener Orchids Master Gardener: Florida Irises
Herbs Region: Florida Vegetable Grower Daylilies Birds Cat Lover
It's also good to keep in mind that most of our members are in the US, and it is a huge, diverse country with a lot of different climate zones. So one person's experience may be very different than another's, depending upon where they are. Luckily, on the questions about plants there are forums for different areas.

Gardeners learn a lot from books and websites, true. But a wealth of our information is gained by grueling nodding trial and error. Many many errors, and dead plants to show for it. Since our trials and errors vary from Alaska to Hawaii and Florida, well something that works for one doesn't always work for all.

Composting, however, is done pretty much the same everywhere except where it really freezes. Moisture amounts will vary according to the general humidity, though. See - even that has its variations.
Elaine

"Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." –Winston Churchill
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May 4, 2015 10:51 AM CST
Name: Jean
Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier The WITWIT Badge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages
I love that moment when you can see by the look on a person's face that they "Got it" That moment when everything falls into place and you know that you have given them new knowledge and understanding. Smiling
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May 5, 2015 11:01 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
thats what i was trying to say
david
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May 5, 2015 11:04 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
dyzzypyxxy said:It's also good to keep in mind that most of our members are in the US, and it is a huge, diverse country with a lot of different climate zones. So one person's experience may be very different than another's, depending upon where they are. Luckily, on the questions about plants there are forums for different areas.

Gardeners learn a lot from books and websites, true. But a wealth of our information is gained by grueling nodding trial and error. Many many errors, and dead plants to show for it. Since our trials and errors vary from Alaska to Hawaii and Florida, well something that works for one doesn't always work for all.

Composting, however, is done pretty much the same everywhere except where it really freezes. Moisture amounts will vary according to the general humidity, though. See - even that has its variations.


i thought that people know where the questioner is from and that way knows how to respond according to climate
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May 5, 2015 3:49 PM CST
Name: Jean
Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier The WITWIT Badge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages
Not always David. Sometimes all the information we have to go on is a picture, and not always a very informative one. If you look through the Plant ID forum you will see what Elaine was talking about.
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May 5, 2015 4:04 PM CST
Name: Cheryl
North of Houston TX (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Greenhouse Plant Identifier Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Plumerias Ponds
Foliage Fan Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tropicals Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Hi David, I am wrong all the time and on here I am wrong a lot. But someone is always around to nicely correct me. We learn from our mistakes, right? The nice thing is I am not afraid of being wrong on here. That is how I learn. I maybe wrong, but never too far off from what is correct if that makes any sense? Agree, @Dave has done a wonderful job on this website! Kudos! Hurray! Applause! Applause!
Life is short, Break the rules, Forgive quickly, Kiss slowly, Love Truly, Laugh
uncontrollably, And never regret anything that made you Smile.
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May 5, 2015 4:58 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
ShadyGreenThumb said:... We learn from our mistakes, right?


That was the theme of a book about engineering I have. If you build the same old kind of bridge that everyone builds, and it doesn't fall down, you learned nothing.

If you try something new and it hasn't fallen down yet, maybe you learned something new and maybe you just got lucky.

But if you try something new, and it fails, AND you figure out why it failed, you have discovered an entire new principle, or a new mode of failure, that engineering students will study for decades! Progress!

There are organizations (I heard the claim that NASA is one) that are good at identifying the root causes of disasters. However, they are bad at APPLYING the lesson. Sometimes they make the same mistake repeatedly: that's an example of NOT learning anything USEFUL.

We have a program at work where we are supposed to capture "Lessons Learned" for future programs' edification. As far as I know, no one has ever entered one. if they had named it "Lessons We SHOULD Have Learned", or "Lessons Ignored", I bet they would get an earful!
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May 6, 2015 1:46 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
RickCorey said:

That was the theme of a book about engineering I have. If you build the same old kind of bridge that everyone builds, and it doesn't fall down, you learned nothing.

If you try something new and it hasn't fallen down yet, maybe you learned something new and maybe you just got lucky.

But if you try something new, and it fails, AND you figure out why it failed, you have discovered an entire new principle, or a new mode of failure, that engineering students will study for decades! Progress!

There are organizations (I heard the claim that NASA is one) that are good at identifying the root causes of disasters. However, they are bad at APPLYING the lesson. Sometimes they make the same mistake repeatedly: that's an example of NOT learning anything USEFUL.

We have a program at work where we are supposed to capture "Lessons Learned" for future programs' edification. As far as I know, no one has ever entered one. if they had named it "Lessons We SHOULD Have Learned", or "Lessons Ignored", I bet

they would get an earful!

rick i like your way of thinking.as i know ignorance comes from ignore.that is worse than just lack of knowledge.
by the way the compost is starting to get that lovely smell i identify from travelling to the high tatras in slovakia in the forest.i keep getting an urge to quicken the process.
i took the lid off the top of the black container.
nobody made a peek for a whole day and no bugs are in the area .....so if it gets more air the better.
when the "powder" is ready ....how deep does it have to go into an existing plantpot to be beneficial?
is it a long process until the plant recogniges it has been fed with nutrition?
will i see a diferance if i feed one identical plant and not feed the other?
when i see lately these bright red geraniums...i think to myself they must be fed well...
david
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May 6, 2015 1:49 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
ShadyGreenThumb said:Hi David, I am wrong all the time and on here I am wrong a lot. But someone is always around to nicely correct me. We learn from our mistakes, right? The nice thing is I am not afraid of being wrong on here. That is how I learn. I maybe wrong, but never too far off from what is correct if that makes any sense? Agree, @Dave has done a wonderful job on this website! Kudos! Hurray! Applause! Applause!


thanks
i dont mind making trial and error as long as it stays in proportion with my surrounding.
for example opening the container and exposing it to all in an urban surrounding wwas a bit wrong(not for the compost)
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May 6, 2015 3:16 PM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
davidsevit said: rick i like your way of thinking.as i know ignorance comes from ignore.that is worse than just lack of knowledge.


I call that "willful ignorance" and I frown at it.

"Lack of knowledge" probably just means someone never had good teachers or learned to teach themselves. That's probably not their fault. "Stupidity" properly so-called is just a limitation someone was born with - not their fault.

But CHOOSING not to learn from experience or good teachers IS a choice and not one that I admire.

{Edited to add:
There are many people with an "Engineering" approach to gardening and I can't fault that. They want to know HOW to make things grow, but are not particularly interested in underlying reasons or scientific theories. They'd rather BE gardening than reading ABOUT gardening.

How can anyone fault that?
}

davidsevit said: by the way the compost is starting to get that lovely smell i identify from travelling to the high tatras in slovakia in the forest.


I love that smell! It smells like ... healthy soil!

I thought it might go fast once the air reaches most of the pile. If you want to speed it up more, stir it somewhat whenever you peek inside. If it seems too soggy for air to circulate well, leave the lid slightly open for a few days so excess water can escape as humidity. If it seems dry in the center, sprinkle a little water.

The fermenting anaerobic microbes "pre-digested" your raw materials and turned some of them to slime. I expect that slime to break down almost exactly as fast as plenty of air gets to it.

davidsevit said: when the "powder" is ready ....how deep does it have to go into an existing plantpot to be beneficial?


Well, I would be nervous about digging down into a pot that has already been filled with plant roots! Won't you kill a lot of roots if you scratch any deeper than a few cm?

In a raised bed, I like to scratch the compost into the top few inches of soil so it is well mixed with soil microbes and also with the moisture that soil holds. However, many people just "top-dress" with compost outdoors, trusting rain and worms to drag the compost down into the soil, or dissolve it and leach it down into the soil.

Pots don't have worms, and usually have MUCH less soil life than outdoor soil. Usually people who grow plants in pots figure that they CAN'T support a healthy soil ecosystem in each little pot, so they rely on well-draining soilless mixes and chemical fertilizer, or things like fish emulsion that are partly broken down already.

Please give the other side of the story, someone who DOES try to keep organic soil going in small pots!

If I were you, and added compost to POTS, I would either just top-dress with it or scratch it VERY gently into the top of the soil, but AVOID breaking any roots I could. Or re-pot the whole pot, mixing in some compost, but also mixing in something coarse so that the compost doesn't make the potting soil too "dense" to allow air in.

Just as lack of air kills the beneficial aerobic microbes in a compost heap, lack of aeration in a POT kills the root hairs even faster.

davidsevit said: is it a long process until the plant recogniges it has been fed with nutrition?
will i see a diferance if i feed one identical plant and not feed the other?


How long before a plant perks up? IF (... "IF", I say ...) ... IF you've identified the ONLY problem that plant has, I would expect some improvement in a few days to a week, or two weeks at most. If it's a lack of mobile nutrients, the bottom leaves should become greener and less yellow. If it's a lack of IMmobile nutrients, the newest top leaves should start coming in a little greener in a few days.

However, if you're feeding that plant any chemical fertilizer, how likely is it that a problem is purely lack of soluble nutrients? Compost has many benefits other than simple feeding, and they tend to affect the soil, and only after that, indirectly, the roots and the plant.

Also, often a seeming lack of some nutrient doesn't mean the soil is LACKING that nutrient - it might be there in an UNAVAILABLE form - like insoluble due to pH, or damaged roots can't take it up fast enough. Test for that by spraying something on the leaves - foliar feeding. Iron works well that way: it might be insoluble in the soil or impeded by excess of some other mineral.

So a better answer is "I don't know". A rapid improvement can be hoped for, but gradual improvement is more likely. And, if there are other "pot problems", a few weeks could go by before you know you need to keep hunting for another solution.

Hey, I don't grow very many thing in pots, and when I do, the mix is SO well-draining and aerated that I have to water daily. I'm not the best one to ask about growing in pots! I hope others chime in.
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May 6, 2015 5:45 PM CST
Name: Jean
Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier The WITWIT Badge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages
At this point, I think it is beneficial to mention Compost Tea for your containers. This is a way of giving house plants and container plants some of the benefits of compost without disturbing their root systems. The following links should give you most of the info needed.

http://www.hobbyfarms.com/hobb...

(this link gets into the "zen" of brewing.. nodding

http://www.no-dig-vegetablegar...

http://www.homecompostingmadee...

The thread "being a good student" in Ask a Question forum
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May 6, 2015 7:33 PM CST
Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b, and F (Zone 9b)
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
RickCorey said:




Pots don't have worms, and usually have MUCH less soil life than outdoor soil.


...I hope others chime in.



My outdoor pots do have worms, but I plant in my compost mix. Heck, yesterday I even found a worm in a paper-potted seedling transplant... lately residing on a waist-high shelf in my plant house outdoors, but potted up indoors. I have no idea how that one got in there! Hilarious!
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


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May 6, 2015 7:50 PM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
Plant Identifier Region: Georgia Native Plants and Wildflowers Composter Garden Sages Bookworm
Yep, worms here, too. Not every pot, just the really choice ones.
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"
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May 6, 2015 11:36 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
RickCorey said:

I call that "willful ignorance" and I frown at it.

"Lack of knowledge" probably just means someone never had good teachers or learned to teach themselves. That's probably not their fault. "Stupidity" properly so-called is just a limitation someone was born with - not their fault.

But CHOOSING not to learn from experience or good teachers IS a choice and not one that I admire.



I love that smell! It smells like ... healthy soil!

I thought it might go fast once the air reaches most of the pile. If you want to speed it up more, stir it somewhat whenever you peek inside. If it seems too soggy for air to circulate well, leave the lid slightly open for a few days so excess water can escape as humidity. If it seems dry in the center, sprinkle a little water.
rick i envy your knowledge and openness to teach.
thanks alot i will read your mail a hundred times and act according to your tips.
i got an idea/....feed the plant pots with compostea from the plate bellow?

The fermenting anaerobic microbes "pre-digested" your raw materials and turned some of them to slime. I expect that slime to break down almost exactly as fast as plenty of air gets to it.



Well, I would be nervous about digging down into a pot that has already been filled with plant roots! Won't you kill a lot of roots if you scratch any deeper than a few cm?

In a raised bed, I like to scratch the compost into the top few inches of soil so it is well mixed with soil microbes and also with the moisture that soil holds. However, many people just "top-dress" with compost outdoors, trusting rain and worms to drag the compost down into the soil, or dissolve it and leach it down into the soil.

Pots don't have worms, and usually have MUCH less soil life than outdoor soil. Usually people who grow plants in pots figure that they CAN'T support a healthy soil ecosystem in each little pot, so they rely on well-draining soilless mixes and chemical fertilizer, or things like fish emulsion that are partly broken down already.

Please give the other side of the story, someone who DOES try to keep organic soil going in small pots!

If I were you, and added compost to POTS, I would either just top-dress with it or scratch it VERY gently into the top of the soil, but AVOID breaking any roots I could. Or re-pot the whole pot, mixing in some compost, but also mixing in something coarse so that the compost doesn't make the potting soil too "dense" to allow air in.

Just as lack of air kills the beneficial aerobic microbes in a compost heap, lack of aeration in a POT kills the root hairs even faster.



How long before a plant perks up? IF (... "IF", I say ...) ... IF you've identified the ONLY problem that plant has, I would expect some improvement in a few days to a week, or two weeks at most. If it's a lack of mobile nutrients, the bottom leaves should become greener and less yellow. If it's a lack of IMmobile nutrients, the newest top leaves should start coming in a little greener in a few days.

However, if you're feeding that plant any chemical fertilizer, how likely is it that a problem is purely lack of soluble nutrients? Compost has many benefits other than simple feeding, and they tend to affect the soil, and only after that, indirectly, the roots and the plant.

Also, often a seeming lack of some nutrient doesn't mean the soil is LACKING that nutrient - it might be there in an UNAVAILABLE form - like insoluble due to pH, or damaged roots can't take it up fast enough. Test for that by spraying something on the leaves - foliar feeding. Iron works well that way: it might be insoluble in the soil or impeded by excess of some other mineral.

So a better answer is "I don't know". A rapid improvement can be hoped for, but gradual improvement is more likely. And, if there are other "pot problems", a few weeks could go by before you know you need to keep hunting for another solution.

Hey, I don't grow very many thing in pots, and when I do, the mix is SO well-draining and aerated that I have to water daily. I'm not the best one to ask about growing in pots! I hope others chime in.

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May 6, 2015 11:37 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: david sevitt
jerusalem israel
chelle said:

My outdoor pots do have worms, but I plant in my compost mix. Heck, yesterday I even found a worm in a paper-potted seedling transplant... lately residing on a waist-high shelf in my plant house outdoors, but potted up indoors. I have no idea how that one got in there! Hilarious!



funny nature has its ways
Image
May 7, 2015 10:45 AM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Thanks, Chelle and Greene. So it IS possible to have soil in pots be organic and living enough to support worms!

I bet you have something else in your mix that keeps it open and airy as the compost decomposes. Or do you re-pot every few years? Or am I wrong again, and there's "no problem"?
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May 7, 2015 10:59 AM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
Plant Identifier Region: Georgia Native Plants and Wildflowers Composter Garden Sages Bookworm
Ha, Rolling on the floor laughing the answer is in your post. The worms are what keep the soil open and airy. Thumbs up

I re-pot or up-pot as needed, replenishing the 'soil' as required. 'Soil' it mostly homemade compost, sand, pine fines, vermiculite, cow manure (sometimes goat manure) and some coir.

If plants are being grown for a free give-away I might also use the free potting soil from dumpster dives, like this excellent one-day haul.
This is commercial potting soil which contains vermiculite, perlite, slow-release fertilizer (and who knows what else Shrug! ).
Thumb of 2015-05-07/greene/5d45c3
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"
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May 7, 2015 11:19 AM CST
Name: Rick Corey
Everett WA 98204 (Zone 8a)
Sunset Zone 5. Koppen Csb. Eco 2f
Frugal Gardener Garden Procrastinator I helped beta test the first seed swap Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Region: Pacific Northwest
Photo Contest Winner: 2014 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! I helped plan and beta test the plant database.
Nice! I got a lot of pots from one nursery, but never potting soil.
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May 7, 2015 11:23 AM CST
Name: Michele Roth
N.E. Indiana - Zone 5b, and F (Zone 9b)
I'm always on my way out the door..
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Forum moderator Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Dog Lover Cottage Gardener
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant Identifier Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Hummingbirder Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
I do change things out a lot, and when I do I'll add more compost. I like partially decomposed wood chips as an additive...maybe 5%? Not much, just a little. Usually I just turn under last year's chips...if there are any left. If I feel I don't need to change it out entirely I just top it off with fresh compost, and then as a moisture-retentive/compaction reducing mulch I'll add new wood chips, pine fines, crushed limestone or pebbles ...depending on the plants' preferences. Same as in the gardens...just on a smaller scale. Smiling

I agree Greene. The only time I have poor drainage problems in pots is when the worms aren't active.
Cottage Gardening

Newest Interest: Rock Gardens


Image
May 7, 2015 11:37 AM CST
Name: greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
I have no use for internet bullies!
Avid Green Pages Reviewer Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Rabbit Keeper Frugal Gardener Garden Ideas: Master Level
Plant Identifier Region: Georgia Native Plants and Wildflowers Composter Garden Sages Bookworm
I tip my hat to you.
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~"Leaf of Faith"

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