Daylilies forum: Central scapes and lateral scapes

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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
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cybersix
Jul 22, 2015 1:15 AM CST
Hello!
I found an old thread about central scapes and lateral scapes, meaning something different- while I find the topic very interesting I still have some difficulties understanding the differences. Maybe because english is not my first language it seems I can't grasp the meaning.
I have some DLs that have central scapes (already bloomed) and some have lateral scapes (already bloomed).
Never paid much attention to this.
Also, I have one single fan of a DL that's putting some leaves on its side, just at the crown. At first they resembled scape leaves but now they're different: could it be a new fan growing?
Many thanks in advance!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 22, 2015 7:06 AM CST
When I search the daylily forum for central and lateral scapes I find only this thread; could you please indicate the thread you found.

Biologically there is no real difference between a scape that appears in the centre of the fan and one that appears laterally.

Each daylily fan has a growing point in the centre. The growing point produces the leaves; first one leaf on the 'left' side and then the next leaf on the 'right' side and then continuing by producing the next leaf on the 'left' side and so on. When the fan is large enough or old enough the growing point stops producing new leaves and produces a scape. That growing point gets destroyed or all used up when it produces the scape. Most plants are able to produce new growing points (buds) in the space between each leaf and the stem. In daylilies the stem is the crown and daylilies can produce new growing points in those locations. The fan that has produced a scape then produces a new growing point or bud either on the left side or the right side of the scape (or sometimes on both sides at the same time).

The new growing points (or the replacement fans) will produce their own new leaves until they are large enough or old enough to produce their scapes.

After the growing point switches from making leaves to making the scape it takes time to make all the necessary changes inside the growing point to make the scape. During that time, which may be quite a long time, the new growing points (fans) are also developing. Depending on growing conditions and environmental factors the scape may not appear until after a new replacement fan appears. The scape will then be a lateral scape.

Some daylily growers may believe that instead of the central growing point becoming the scape, a lateral, axillary bud or growing point may sometimes become a scape immediately instead of producing new leaves first. As far as I know that is not considered to be the way that scapes develop in daylilies.

Some daylily growers may believe that lateral scapes, especially if they seem to appear outside of all fan leaves and early in the growing season, are 'leftover' rebloom scapes from the previous growing season/year.

Researchers have examined what causes daylilies to flower and have not found that they respond to special temperatures (cold) or day-lengths. Daylilies seem to be perennials that flower much the same way that petunias and tomatoes do. Both petunias and tomatoes are perennials. They each produce a certain number of leaves and then flower and then produce a certain number of leaves and then flower and do that over and over again. So in reality, all or most daylily scapes could be described as being left-over from the previous year or growing season depending on whether the new fans in that year became large enough to change over from producing leaves to producing the scape before the previous growing season ended. All scapes after the very first one on a fan could be described as rebloom scapes or perhaps even all daylilies have the ability to rebloom in the right growing conditions.

Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 22, 2015 7:25 AM CST
Maurice - I wondered about that. I have some that produced a scape 2 months after the initial scape. So that made me question in my zone whether most all daylilies could continue to bloom/rebloom given the right conditions. Or do some cultivars only have the initial bloom period and don't bloom again for another year.

Is there a particular fertilizer ratio that encourages scape/bloom production? I know the more fans, the more scapes.
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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
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cybersix
Jul 22, 2015 9:21 AM CST
Maurice, the thread was an old thread, since I'm new on this forum I started to read from the older pages and found it. If I can find it again I will put a link here.
In that thread there was exactly the theory you mentioned: lateral scape are leftover scape.

If I get it right the cycle it's the same for all daylilies: a certain number of leaves, then scape; and then again. So the little leaves I see on a side of my single fan are the first leaves of a new fan. But "old" fans (the originary fans you plant) keep on growing leaves and scapes, right?
Sorry I'm hoping to write in a clear manner sometimes I have a bit of difficulty putting together long english sentences!
Reblooming so seems to me just a matter of "time": if the season and the weather are fine the life cycle continues, and a plant can reeblom; but when cold occurs then it stops. So, potentially, if summer would last 6 months we could have 6 months of blooming? But why some DLs are told to be "instant rebloom"? Do they something different in the growing cycle? Or is it due to a really fast growth under the right condition? This would explain why some are not "instant rebloomers" for everyone of us. Thank You!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 22, 2015 9:36 AM CST
I found the old thread, here it is The thread "Pre-bloom and Instant Rebloom - with photos" in Daylilies forum
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 22, 2015 10:00 AM CST
beckygardener said:So that made me question in my zone whether most all daylilies could continue to bloom/rebloom given the right conditions. Or do some cultivars only have the initial bloom period and don't bloom again for another year.


I think that all daylilies can rebloom or simply continue to produce scapes given the right conditions. There are tens of thousands of daylily cultivars (and of course quite a few original species) so it is impossible to be certain that absolutely all could but the professional daylily growers/hybridizers in California and Florida have indicated that all or nearly all daylilies can rebloom given the necessary growing conditions.

Is there a particular fertilizer ratio that encourages scape/bloom production? I know the more fans, the more scapes.


I do not know and I don't think anyone has published particular fertilizer ratios that encourage scapes/bloom. However, I did recently post the amount of nitrogen that is optimal for growth in another thread. To get rebloom or produce the next scape the fan must produce the necessary number or size of leaves to become 'mature' and bloom. To do that one needs growth and the quicker the growth and the more growth the better. That often means relatively high nitrogen ratios and I have found that to be the case in my test (also described in the other thread). I am in zone 4 with a relatively short growing season without a large number of growing degree days (a measure of its length and heat). I have 'J. T. Davis', 'Ruckus' and 'ForestLake Ragamuffin' reblooming this year because I provided them with high nitrogen both last year and earlier this spring.

Once the nitrogen needs have been satisfied then some other factor becomes limiting - that may be water or some of the other elements need for growth.

Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 22, 2015 10:07 AM CST
Maurice - I remember you talking about the nitrogen levels in another thread, so I believe that you are correct in your theory. Seems you plants are a good example of feeding daylilies enough to promote reblooming and extended season blooms. Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 22, 2015 10:18 AM CST
cybersix said:I found the old thread, here it is The thread "Pre-bloom and Instant Rebloom - with photos" in Daylilies forum

Thank you.

If I get it right the cycle it's the same for all daylilies: a certain number of leaves, then scape; and then again.

Yes. It is possible that each daylily cultivar has its own specific number of leaves or size of the fan (or possibly size of the crown when there is only one or a few fans on that crown) to be mature and bloom.
[quote]So the little leaves I see on a side of my single fan are the first leaves of a new fan.
I cannot be certain - can you post a photograph?
But "old" fans (the original fans you plant) keep on growing leaves and scapes, right?
My answer is a little complicated. Officially/scientifically a fan is finished when it produces its scape and blooms - that is because the growing point or bud of that fan is completely consumed when it produces the scape. But the fan produces a baby fan and at least one new growing point or bud to replace the one used up so the fan does keep on growing and producing new scapes.
Sorry I'm hoping to write in a clear manner sometimes I have a bit of difficulty putting together long english sentences!
Your sentences seem very good to me. I am half-Italian (mother) and my spoken Italian is very poor and I cannot write anything in Italian so your English is very very much better than my Italian.
Reblooming so seems to me just a matter of "time": if the season and the weather are fine the life cycle continues, and a plant can rebloom; but when cold occurs then it stops. So, potentially, if summer would last 6 months we could have 6 months of blooming?
Yes.
But why some DLs are told to be "instant rebloom"? Do they something different in the growing cycle? Or is it due to a really fast growth under the right condition? This would explain why some are not "instant rebloomers" for everyone of us.
I think that it is probably due to very fast growth under the right conditions but even if it is not due to very fast growth I think that it is due to the specific growing conditions that the plant experiences as it is changing from growing leaves to producing the scape.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Jul 22, 2015 10:20 AM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 22, 2015 10:22 AM CST
Maurice - Do the fans die once they produce a scape and bloom?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 22, 2015 11:36 AM CST
beckygardener said:Maurice - Do the fans die once they produce a scape and bloom?

Not practically, the growing point or bud of the fan that produced the scape is gone but the crown replaces that growing point with a new bud. That new bud produces what would formally be considered a new fan. It is the crown that is important and as long as the crown has unused living buds it can produce new fans.

All the leaves of the original fan will die as the growing season progresses and the leaves that remain will have been produced by the new bud or growing point. There is a continuous cycle of leaf production followed by a scape followed by new leaf production followed by a new scape and so on repeating the renewal process.
Maurice
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 22, 2015 11:40 AM CST
A research article that looked at fertilizer versus number of daylily blooms is this one,
Chen, Yan, et al. "Controlled-release fertilizer type and rate affect landscape establishment of seven herbaceous perennials." HortTechnology 21.3 (2011): 336-342. See Table 1 for number of flowers for different treatments. As far as I recall (haven't re-read it) the fertilizer analyses were similar but the amounts given differed.

http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/21/3/336.full

Might be easier to read as a PDF:
http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/21/3/336.full.p...
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 22, 2015 11:49 AM CST
Maurice - Thanks. I didn't know for sure. Is that why it is necessary for the health of most daylilies to divide them every 2-4 years?

Sue - Thank you for those links. I wonder if just milorganite works well? I do believe in the alfalfa pellets, too. I just didn't know if it was helpful to incourage flower production that it would be good to feed them something like Bloom Booster?
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 22, 2015 12:14 PM CST
You need to compare analyses AND amounts per specific area. If cost is a factor you'd also need to calculate and compare cost per lb. of nutrient too when looking at alternatives. In the study I mentioned they were using analyses of 15N–3.9P–10K and 16N–3.5P–10K. Some daylily hybridizers mention using a ratio (not analysis) of something like 3-1-2 which is fairly close to these but I don't recall their suggesting how much per square foot or whatever. Those amounts would also depend on one's own specific soil test. I've seen a few soil tests where people were having problems with daylilies and the nutrient levels were way too high, so one needs to be careful not to overdo it.

I'm not a big fan of high P (middle number) fertilizers. I think they're often used unnecessarily. The nutrient most likely to be deficient if any are is nitrogen. If you're looking to try and limit rust then make sure the plants are also getting adequate K (potassium). Milorganite is around 5-2-0 according to their website. A fertilizer alfalfa pellet I checked just now, I assume they vary somewhat, had an analysis of 3-0-2. Edited to add, as Maurice said any essential nutrient that is in insufficient supply will limit the performance of plants regardless of how much there is of everything else. One problem that crops up often with daylilies is the soil pH being too high resulting in micronutrient deficiency causing interveinal chlorosis.
[Last edited by sooby - Jul 22, 2015 12:17 PM (+)]
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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
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cybersix
Jul 24, 2015 1:52 AM CST
@admmad, many thanks for your explanation.
I took a couple of pics of the new little leaves I see. I guess it's a fan, but who knows!
Thanks for looking!
Thumb of 2015-07-24/cybersix/4566c3
Thumb of 2015-07-24/cybersix/7975f6

Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 24, 2015 5:18 AM CST
Yes, it is a new fan. Some daylily cultivars produce shoots, rhizomes, that develop a new fan at their tips. The ditchlily, 'Europa' does this but so do some modern cultivars.
Maurice
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 24, 2015 2:55 PM CST
Oh yeah so I'm getting a new fan! Many thanks!
Sorry, another question: if the fan is producing leaves in the center, does it mean that soon it will produce a scape?
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
[Last edited by cybersix - Jul 24, 2015 2:57 PM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 24, 2015 4:46 PM CST
Quite possibly. But it is also seasonal, so you'll have to wait and see! I hope it does. Thumbs up
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jul 24, 2015 4:47 PM CST
It is often a sign a new scape will be forming soon.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jul 24, 2015 5:28 PM CST
A growing fan will produce new leaves from the centre. Immature fans are or should be growing. How long the fan must grow, how large it must become or how many leaves it must grow or how large the leaves must be or the crown must be before the fan can produce a scape depends on its growth rate. A fan's growth rate will depend on its genes, on the amount of sunlight, the amount of water, the temperature, the various amounts of elements (fertilizer - nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and the minor elements required), how much of its resources it is putting into producing seeds, etc.

In my garden, with no added fertilizer and no added water (just natural rain) and low levels of weeding plus high levels of seed making a fan will need at least one growing season (or more or less one year) to grow large enough to produce a scape and sometimes more than one year. If it is small enough when it arrives here after purchase it may not flower that year or the next year even without making seeds.

How quickly a fan can flower may also depend on whether that fan is all alone or whether it is attached to one or more other fans. The other fans may help the new fan by providing it with some resources to grow more quickly.
Maurice
Name: Michele Roth
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chelle
Jul 24, 2015 6:35 PM CST
Great information given here. I've learned a lot from it. Thank you! I tip my hat to you.
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