Daylilies forum: Anyone knows about "osmopriming"?

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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
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cybersix
Aug 25, 2015 3:37 AM CST
Good morning! Well, it's almost noon here! I was googling germination techniques and found the paper towel method but following the links I read about "osmopriming".
All the discussions were about peppers, and I'm wondering if this could help with daylily germination too.
The method it's to soak seeds for at least 24 hours to a maximum of 48 hours in a solution of water and kitchen salt (that is properly the osmopriming thing). After that the seeds are rinsed well and placed on damp paper towels in a plastic container with a lid, with some holes for air. People doing this are raving about it, they get germination in from 24 hours to 4 days.
The osmopriming seems to lead to a fast and succesful germination in 100% of the cases.
The salt in water causes the seeds to plump immedately and forces germination.
Any experience similar to this? If the seeds I will collect fron the only pod I have will be enough I will try this on some.
Whistling
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Aug 25, 2015 6:41 AM CST
I've never heard of anyone trying osmopriming with daylily seeds, interesting question. They will germinate in a few days at room temperature after a few weeks' of stratification (damp chilling) or during soaking in hydrogen peroxide at around 1:9 household H2O2 to water. Both these methods break seed dormancy. When I did my germination experiments I did not try osmopriming.

Daylily seeds that do not have seed dormancy will germinate quickly if just planted with no pre-treatment at all, but do you know yet whether your daylily seeds typically have seed dormancy? Osmopriming does supposedly work with some kinds of seed dormancy but whether it works with the type of seed dormancy daylilies have I don't know, you should try it (unless the seeds are too precious to risk!) and let us know.

I did test soaking in plain water and it inhibited daylily seed germination, they germinated better just planted in the normal way without pre-soaking. I also tried a weak solution of sodium hypochlorite and the seeds died.

Scarification (removing or abrading the seed coat) also works with daylily seeds even though the seed coat is not impervious to water, but there's more potential for rotting without a protective seed coat.

You should ideally also have enough seeds to start an untreated control group planted at the same time in ordinary seed starting medium, and maybe also a group with stratification. Otherwise you won't know if osmopriming had any advantages over other methods or even over no treatment at all. If you don't have enough seeds to do all this I'll see if I can get enough for a comparison trial. I may also try PEG because that is also used for osmopriming.
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 25, 2015 7:09 AM CST
Many thanks Sue (as always!) for your post.
The key is finding if all daylilies seeds have dormancy or not, I think. I have 1 seed to test and a pod that's not ripe yet (unless I decide to buy some seeds). I guess one cannot know about every cultivar seeds dormancy.
So I did a research on google and found this interesting article:
http://www.uky.edu/Projects/SeedBiology/research/DORMAN.PDF

It explaines the different kind of dormancies among plants; then, it says that the genera hemerocallis always have the same type of dormancy and it needs (obligatory) stratification. This could simplify the basis for testing. The only thing I knew before entering ATP was that diploids can germinate soon after harvesting, while triploids needs a cold period (the article is written by an italian hybrydizer and he uses dry chilling).
So I'll start giving for a fact that all daylilies seeds have dormancy. Now, what I can't find it's osmopriming related to dormancy, as you say.
It's a bit of a double work for me, understanding correctly english articles then understanding the gardening terminology LOL.
I'm not in a good position for testing directly having so few seeds; and having few seeds I'd like to know before how to treat them, but I recon it's impossible.
So did you find different seeds dormancy in your experience?
I have to wait and see how many I'll harvest by the end of the month from just one pod, but I guess they won't be enough for a good testing!!
At the bottom of that article there's a note regarding daylilies I'm having some difficulties in understanding it correctly...
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
[Last edited by cybersix - Aug 25, 2015 7:22 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 25, 2015 7:42 AM CST
cybersix said:Many thanks Sue (as always!) for your post.


You're very welcome.

cybersix said:The key is finding if all daylilies seeds have dormancy or not, I think.


I'm not sure if you mean your seeds or daylily seeds in general? Daylily seeds in general do not all have seed dormancy. For your own seeds the only way to find out is to start them conventionally, i.e. just plant them in normal seed starting medium, don't do anything to them first. If they all germinate in a week or two they did not have seed dormancy. If they germinate over several weeks or months then the later ones did have seed dormancy. Then you would know that you need to be prepared for seed dormancy the next time.

cybersix said:It explaines the different kind of dormancies among plants; then, it says that the genera hemerocallis always have the same type of dormancy and it needs (obligatory) stratification.


I've seen that article before and it is incorrect, stratification is not obligatory for all daylilies but it speeds up germination. They will still germinate if not stratified (there may be exception but nobody's ever studied that) but it can take a long time for some of them. If you'd like to read the original research on daylily seed dormancy from the 1950's try these links:

http://www.daylilies.org/AHSarchives/Griesbach.html
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2473081?seq=1#page_scan_tab_cont...

The second article only has the abstract online for free but most of the important information is summarized there in any case. The full article is 15 pages long and a lot of the information is on the first link above by the same author.

cybersix said: The only thing I knew before entering ATP was that diploids can germinate soon after harvesting, while triploids needs a cold period (the article is written by an italian hybrydizer and he uses dry chilling).


This is incorrect. The seeds I mostly experimented with were diploid and about 25% would germinate immediately while 75% were dormant. See also Griesbach's experiments in the links above. I don't recall keeping any statistics for tets but the usual comment one hears is that dormants benefit from stratification and evergreens do not. This also is probably not correct but has not been studied. Also does it mean the foliage habit of the parents or the foliage habit of the seedling itself?

Dry chilling does not break daylily seed dormancy. If the seeds germinated well after dry chilling they may not have been dormant in the first place. The other possibility is that chilling while fresh (when the seeds are not internally dry) may break dormancy but I think it is most likely that the seeds were not dormant to start with. A daylily seed may be dormant at one time and not at another, seed dormancies can wear off during storage for example. There are also other factors like the air temperature when they are started and so on.

cybersix said:So I'll start giving for a fact that all daylilies seeds have dormancy.


That's the safest way Smiling

cybersix said:Now, what I can't find it's osmopriming related to dormancy, as you say.


I did find something when I looked for that earlier this morning, but it was for thermodormancy and photodormancy. I've sometimes wondered if the former might apply to daylilies sometimes, but in Griesbach's testing they didn't respond to light/dark.

cybersix said:So did you find different seeds dormancy in your experience?


In my main testing I did I used naturally pollinated pods from a diploid species-type (it is either Hemerocallis lilioasphodelus or closely related but was not labeled) so that they were genetically as close as I could get them. Those were what I mentioned above as germinating 25% without stratification while the other 75% responded to damp chilling. I'm not sure if I can get enough of those now to try osmopriming but I will look. I know I can get enough of another species-type daylily but it flowers much later so unlikely to have been self-pollinated.

You might also find this article from the American Hemerocallis Society's Journal of interest:
http://www.ctdaylily.com/files/Stratification_article.pdf

cybersix said:It's a bit of a double work for me, understanding correctly english articles then understanding the gardening terminology LOL.


You do very well indeed!


[Last edited by sooby - Aug 25, 2015 7:44 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Aug 25, 2015 8:10 AM CST
cybersix said:
At the bottom of that article there's a note regarding daylilies I'm having some difficulties in understanding it correctly...


Which article is that?

Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 25, 2015 8:19 AM CST
@Sooby, I need to work on some of my candles, I will read later, I only want to clarify I'm speaking of seed dormancy only. Many thanks!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Aug 25, 2015 8:27 AM CST
cybersix said: I only want to clarify I'm speaking of seed dormancy only. Many thanks!


So was I, other than my comment that some people think dormants (adult plant registered foliage habit) have seeds with seed dormancy and evergreens (foliage habit) do not, which is not necessarily correct but hasn't been specifically studied. Confused

Have fun with your candles Smiling

Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 26, 2015 10:14 AM CST
I read everything, and from the little I understand it seems that dormancy is there, that osmopriming has nothing to do wih daylily seeds dormancy.

So back to the start again, we only need stratification.
Reading all the articles it's clear (at least it seems to me) that moisture is crucial; so why do we need to let seed dry in the air before stratification? Or it's a misreading I did on here?
It's also clear that many seeds we harvested had already dried if the pod is cracked open and dry itself, maybe being in the sun for a couple of days. What a lot of question in my mind!!!!!!

I don't relate dormancy of seeds with dormancy of foliage, and I don't care if a plant is dormant or not. I wanted veregreens just to have some green during the winter but it goes by itself, the hard the winter the less they stay awake Rolling on the floor laughing

Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Aug 26, 2015 10:56 AM CST
I think you need to let the seeds dry if you plan on storing them for awhile before actually planting them. If you store them not dry, they could either germinate or get moldy, both of which I have had happen.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 27, 2015 6:28 AM CST
Hemlady said:I think you need to let the seeds dry if you plan on storing them for awhile before actually planting them. If you store them not dry, they could either germinate or get moldy, both of which I have had happen.

So if I want to start germination after harvesting it's not important, since the seeds go to stratification directly, right?
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
Hybridizer Irises Butterflies Charter ATP Member Birds Cat Lover
Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Vegetable Grower Daylilies Hummingbirder Heucheras
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Hemlady
Aug 27, 2015 6:39 AM CST
I think it depends on whether or not the seed may be dormant. Dormants do require a cool period. I have never germinated seeds directly from the pod before but I have actually had some sprouting in the pod when I opened it so maybe it will be fine Sabrina. Why don't you try a few as an experiment and if they germinate they you could do the rest.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 27, 2015 1:17 PM CST
You can plant them immediately and see what happens, or stratify them right away if you want to avoid possibly erratic germination. Or, if you don't want to start them now, you can just put them in a paper bag or similar and leave them at room temperature until you want to start them, then do either of the above. Or let them dry for a while and then store in the fridge (not in paper because they may get too dry) until you are ready to start or stratify. The only problem with skipping stratification is that some may take a long time to germinate but unless you try it that way first you won't know if damp chilling would be worthwhile. If you want to store before starting and the climate is warm and humid they would probably be better stored in the fridge until you want to start or stratify them.

There are all sorts of complicated methods suggested for starting daylily seeds. The simplest is to just plant them as you would any other seed. If they take longer to germinate than you'd like then stratify next time.




.
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 27, 2015 1:34 PM CST
First problem: I never planted any seed Hilarious!
Second problem: the seeds I "accidentaly" harvested from the neihgbour garden (stella de oro) simply disappeared in the pot where I planted them.
So I really don't know where to begin!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Aug 27, 2015 2:35 PM CST
What I would suggest then, assuming you don't have hundreds of seeds, is to get a plastic container of some kind, maybe one that had a soft cheese or something like that in it, and fill it to within half an inch of the top with vermiculite or perlite. Dampen the medium but don't get it dripping wet (better do this before you put it in the container to be safe). Then push your seeds into the medium to twice their diameter. If the container has a lid, put that on or else put the container in a plastic bag. Put it in the fridge for about a month.

Then take it out of the fridge and set it somewhere indoors that is light but out of the hot sun. If it's in a plastic bag you can look through every day or two for sprouts. If there's a lid then lift it to check. You should not need to water. Once you see the first sprout then take off the lid or remove the bag. You'll probably need to start watering at this point so will need drainage holes in the container to make sure you don't over-water. If you have a clean plastic flower pot you could use that with the plastic bag instead of recycling a cheese container or whatever.

If you have any questions along the way just ask. I'm assuming here that you want to start them indoors.

Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 27, 2015 2:42 PM CST
Thanks Sue, as always, I'm much obliged.
yes, I want to start them indoors and hopefully have a little plant to put outside in the ground next spring.
I have vermiculite on its way Hurray! and I kept apart some plastic fruit cointainers like the one in the pic. Those have holes in the bottom, I don't remember if they have holes in the lid too. In the fridge and then until sprouting the holes must be sealed? I may enclose the whole thing in a plastic bag if it has too many holes.

I can't wait to harvest seeds, I have only one pod and it's taking forever to ripen (pollinated the 10 of july). In these days heat and sun are back so I hope it will ripen, it should be almost time!

Thumb of 2015-08-27/cybersix/a6cd65

Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Aug 27, 2015 2:54 PM CST
You may just want to put it in a bag so that nothing leaks out at the bottom all over your fridge! Otherwise I don't think a few air holes would hurt.
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Aug 27, 2015 2:55 PM CST
Oh thanks, reading your post I thought everything should be totally sealed! Green Grin!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com

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