Plant ID forum: Tropical palm in Rio de Janeiro

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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Oct 14, 2015 1:29 AM CST
It is many years ago I photographed this huge palm which still has no id.
I'm not sure if it is native to Brazil as it was planted in town..


Name: Leslieray Hurlburt
Sacramento California (Zone 9b)
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HamiltonSquare
Oct 14, 2015 7:36 PM CST
Reminds me of the Phoenix caneriensis that are used here as landscape trees.
Hamilton Square Garden, Historic City Cemetery, Sacramento California.
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Oct 14, 2015 8:09 PM CST
Thanks Leslieray, but I think the stem doesn't seem to fit Phoenix canariensis.
I made a crop of mine and a photo from our database for comparison;




Name: Lin
Florida (Zone 9b)
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plantladylin
Oct 15, 2015 2:12 PM CST
Maybe the Peach Palm, Bactris gasipaes? Orange Crownshaft Palm (Areca vestiaria)
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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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bonitin
Oct 15, 2015 8:50 PM CST
I don't think so Lin, the leaves of Bactris gasipaes seem to broad for that,
I made another crop..

Also the fruiting bodies were really a fiery red on mine, they looked like flowers from a distance.
I have still another photo where it shows what i think is the same palm but from a distance, it is much smaller but is loaded with fruit,
it is the one on the right,
and the one in the middle without flowers or fruit looks the same too..
Thumb of 2015-10-16/bonitin/9b3f51

Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Oct 15, 2015 11:57 PM CST
I think I've found it:
Phoenix dactylifera
http://www.photos-photography-pictures.com/photo/date-palm-f...
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Oct 16, 2015 6:35 AM CST
The trunk of Phoenix dactylifera doesn't have the unusual leaf scar pattern Myriam, and the fruits aren't red unless there is a form of it which does ..

The species is dioecious, with separate male and female trees. The fruit are yellow or orange when ripe (turning brown when dried),


http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Phoenix_dactylifera

Phoenix canariensis appears to have the criss-crossing of leaf scars, and it hybridises naturally ...

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Phoenix_canariensis

The fruits of the Phoenix canariensis can be yellow or red


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Phoenix+canariensis+red+fr...

(Phoenix canariensis var. porphyrocarpa) with red fruits/seeds


http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26259-varieti...

Phoenix canariensis hybrid (left)


http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2762/
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
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bonitin
Oct 17, 2015 5:31 AM CST
Thanks Janet for the research! Smiling I'm going to look at it later as I have some configuration problems after changing IP Sighing!
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
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bonitin
Oct 18, 2015 11:41 PM CST
I'm confused Janet, to me the trunk of Phoenix dactylifera looks the same to mine in this photo of http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/File:406ecf.jpg
trunk dull brown, marked with diamond-shaped leaf base scars

another quote from the text
Fruit very variable in shape and size, 4 - 7 x 2 - 3 cm, ripening a range of colours from yellow and green to orange, red, purplish- brown

https://www.google.be/search?
Showing the fruits vivid red..
https://www.google.be/search?q=Phoenix+canariensis&espv=2&rl...
[Last edited by bonitin - Oct 18, 2015 11:47 PM (+)]
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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Oct 19, 2015 12:15 AM CST
more confused.. Hilarious!
the colour of the fruits of both species seem to be variable but the looks of the scars on the trunks too..
It does look like the photo of Phoenix canariensis var. porphyrocarpa too, from your link
http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/26259-varieti...
I don't know anylonger what to do? Shrug! As it could also be a hybrid, maybe I should move them to the Phoenix parent page?
I googled: Phoenix dactylifera rio de Janeiro and got this, it seems to be planted in abundance in town..
https://www.google.be/search?q=Phoenix+dactylifera+rio+de+ja...

I think I'll stick with Phoenix dactylifera..
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Oct 19, 2015 6:08 AM CST
Are you sure that photo on pinterest is Phoenix dactylifera Myriam? I checked the wording on the photo by hovering the arrow over it, and clicked the 'more' link below, it doesn't say where it is.

I didn't expand the description, but the diamond shaped leaf scars look more like stubs to me than the criss-crossing effect. It's an African species.

http://www.florafinder.com/Species/Phoenix_dactylifera.php

The description also says:

As an ornamental plant, it is however less attractive than many other palms, with sparser, more rigid foliage (less graceful) than the related Canary Island Date Palm Phoenix canariensis.


This site is from Brazil, I translated the words ..

http://www.mfrural.com.br/mobile/ClassificadosAnuncio.aspx?i...

Date Palm Palm tree has single or branched stem at the base, with a height up to 30.0 meters in their places of origin.

In its height is around 15 to 18.0 metres.

Your World Cup can take good space, about 6.0 metres when in adulthood, with large number of leaves, around 20 to 40 units.

Its trunk is wide and can reach up to 45 cm in diameter and is covered with small scraps of fallen leaves, giving a scaly appearance.

These remains of leaves are dry and grey in colour.

The leaves are large, reaching to 3 to 6 meters long by 30 to 60 cm wide at the base.

The new leaves are erect, arching itself over time.

Their general appearance is similar to that of Phoenix canariensis, but this can achieve only 21.0 metres and its Crown of leaves is with approximately of 100 units per change.

The flowers are white, produced in female flowers and yellow in the male, which are on separate plants, as it is a dioecious Palm.

The large bunches of flowers produce edible yellow frutinhos and greatly appreciated.

Several Mediterranean countries grow date palms, as Spain sell the fruits in the form of raisins for savory and sweet recipes.

The company is on the market for almost 30 years producing and selling seedlings and native plants, fruit trees, Ornamentals and palms. Our concern is the choice of the seed, the soil preparation, seed germination, planting, extraction, bleeding, transport and replanting. For a higher quality all stages are accompanied by agricultural technicians. This brings us the security of always be offering a product of the highest quality and guarantee. Our company is qualified to meet all types of customer, we have to prompt delivery from seedlings in bags to trees and palm trees and fruit adult already producing fruit in the foot.


With orange fruits ..

http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-706065494-mudas-de-ta...

Adaptation in Brazil ..

https://translate.google.be/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://t...

The date palm was introduced in Brazil for many years but there were few systematic studies of this culture. The first record of introduction of date palm in Brazil dates back to 1928 when some materials were introduced in São Paulo and some studies have been conducted in the Escola Superior de Agricultura Luiz de Queiroz, which originated some varieties.
In northeastern Brazil the date palm was introduced in public irrigation projects, however very little information about the culture were collected, although it is known that it was in this region where the plants showed more promising results.
In the early eighties, the Agricultural Research Center Tropic Semi-Arid and the National Center for Genetic resources, both from Embrapa, introduced palm trees originating in Africa and the United States, whose plantations were installed in the Bebedouro Experimental Station in Petrolina -PE. A large part of these plants were originated from seeds, resulting in a large number of individuals with different genetic characteristics as the original variety, however, another group of plants from shoots, have the genetic traits of the original variety.


A scientific Brazilian site which says it's more adapted to hot, arid areas such as north east Brazil ..

The date palm (Phoenix dactylifera L.) is a kind of arecaceae family that produces highly nutritious edible fruit and is of considerable importance to many countries in North Africa, the Middle East and East Asia. Due to its botanical characters and their development capability in hot and arid regions and in various types of soils, the date becomes a great option for the Brazilian Northeast.


https://translate.google.be/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://w...

A photo showing the chunky diamond shaped leaf scars well, you can enlarge it ..

https://translate.google.be/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://w...


























Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Oct 19, 2015 11:20 PM CST
Thanks Janet! I think I'm convinced now that it is Phoenix canariensis!
also because of the colour of the leaves of Phoenix dactylifera I quote here from the last link you gave:
Foliage color: green-gray

Thank You!

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Oct 20, 2015 4:45 AM CST
Thumbs up I tip my hat to you.

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