I have never tried it myself.

tcmfish said:Those of you who get damping off has anyone tried the "on the rocks" method? Or anyone else for that matter try the "on the rocks" method?

I haven't tried it but I know someone who has and there were still some mold issues, plus the seeds/seedlings were slower (at least to start with) than a batch started at the same time in media. Since some of the organisms that cause damping off are "water molds" with reproductive units that can "swim" in water it's not a method that would appeal to me as I'd be concerned that any contamination could spread throughout the batch. The advantage as far as people who use this method are concerned, I believe, is that you can see each seed germinate. However, if daylily seeds are adequately stratified before starting them then they should be up and running within a few days to a couple of weeks of starting in regular seed starting media in any case, which avoids the protracted germination of unstratified seeds that have seed dormancy.

To avoid damping off, here are some things you can do. Of course we all take short-cuts but to go "by the book" where damping off is a concern you need a well-drained porous seed starting mix, not a regular potting mix. (If there's any doubt about the quality of the media then you might want to pasteurize it first but I've never found that necessary). There should be little to no fertilizer in it. Start with brand new OR well-washed (with soapy water possibly followed by a dilute bleach dip) containers. The seeds need to be well-spaced out to maximize air circulation (a fan can also help here). Avoid using an already opened bag of media, start with a new intact one. Don't mist the seedlings and, if possible, water from the bottom instead of overhead.

Be careful not to plant the seeds too deep (twice the width of the seed is enough, otherwise they use too much energy getting their first leaves above the surface which potentially weakens them), make sure they're getting enough light and, very important, don't over-water. The room temperature should be not too hot or too cold. If you start them under a lid or cover of some kind to avoid having to water the container, take it off when the first seed has germinated so that the humidity isn't too high for the subsequent emerging seedlings.

Here's a test (not mine) comparing "on the rocks" to a more conventional method:
http://www.ezdaylilies.com/OTR...

Daylily seeds can be very slow to germinate when they have seed dormancy (you can't tell from looking at them whether they are dormant or not). I suspect this is at least partly why there are so many different methods used for starting, but it would actually go further to speed things up if the seeds are stratified first and then started like you would any other seed.

If you wanted to go with a different method of starting and one where you can see them germinate, you could try starting them in 1:9 or thereabouts household strength hydrogen peroxide to water. You don't need to do this if the seeds have been stratified since it achieves the same goal of speeding things up unless you particularly want to watch what they're up to.

I would not soak them in plain water until they sprout because in my testing, and that of others, it actually slows down germination compared to starting in media. Edited to add that in my test the water soaking seeds had not been stratified first because I was investigating methods of breaking seed dormancy.

Hmmm, well I plan to give it a try. I read the other years and it seemed like a good idea in the third year, now you have me skeptical. I'll be happy if half the seeds live.

What water a people using, I have access to deionized water, RO water, and tap water.

I use bottled spring water.

I have a well and use just plain old well water for everything

Well water here, too. Before that, city water. Didn't make a difference either way.

I have seen a difference when using well water that has gone through a water softener. I now get my water for seedlings from a point before it goes through the softener. I think the salts have negative effects.

TreeClimber said:I have seen a difference when using well water that has gone through a water softener. I now get my water for seedlings from a point before it goes through the softener. I think the salts have negative effects.

I would think it's possible it would have a negative effect especially if there's a significant amount still in the water (which I thought there wasn't supposed to be but we once had a water softener that was adjusted wrongly and the water tasted salty until the technician finally checked and fixed it).

Anyway, salts are the reason seed starting media should have little or no fertilizer, because fertilizers are salts and salts have a negative effect on germination (and plants in general) if concentrated enough.

I had a water softener when I was on city water at my last house, and had no issues at all. Now I'm on well water and need a water softener, but haven't bought one yet. Still, no problems at all with the water I use.

It sounds like there's a lot of variation in what works for different people. I'm on 'city water' that still requires a water softener (yeah, we have to pay for the city water AND still had to purchase a water softener AND the more expensive potassium chloride because they don't allow regular salt) ...I'm concerned about the salts affecting my seedlings because I don't have a great access point before the softener to get my water in the winter. I do have several seedlings started--not intentionally, they had germinated in the seed pod--and I've been using the softened water and they seem to be doing great so far.

For these early stages, I have the 3 eager-beaver, sprouted-in-the-seedpod seedlings in K-cups filled with soil. Once I begin to germinate my other seeds sometime early next year, I plan to still use the K-cups to grow them, initially. It might seem crazy to others and completely not worth the added effort, but, for now, it makes sense to me. I figure that if a seed doesn't germinate, atleast I haven't wasted much space/soil/etc. on it. Space is definitely at a premium here. Starting them in the small K-cups might also make it easier to bottom-water earlier on, too, but I'm not sure. In the end, it makes me feel good to have an additional use for the K-cups.

As a side note, we're considering ditching K-cups until they come out with recyclable K-cups that will fit the older generations of machines. So far, Yogi tea is the only one that I've seen make recyclable K-cups for the older generation(s) of single-serve machines (mine is a CuisinArt that brews K-cups but also has a re-usable single-serve filter/cup). Yogi tea is good, but sometimes I just have to have my coffee.

The reason I asked about water is there is a lot more in city water than what people think, which in my mind could lead to problems. Coming from an aquarium background, many tap waters will test around 100-300 TDS or total dissolved solids, and by using RO water about 90-95% of those get removed (<10 TDS after RO ideally), and the deionized or DI water should be pure H2O at 0 TDS. Different bottled waters are usually RO or DI if you read the fine print. Distilled should be the same as DI but how you get there is different.

Wondering if there would be less mold issues with a more pure water. Later on though probably better to use city water because of the added nutrients.

DogsNDaylilies said:It sounds like there's a lot of variation in what works for different people. I'm on 'city water' that still requires a water softener (yeah, we have to pay for the city water AND still had to purchase a water softener AND the more expensive potassium chloride because they don't allow regular salt) :angry

Potassium being a plant nutrient it is usually said to be less of a problem when watering with potassium softened water, than from the sodium ones. I've read that the amount of sodium depends on the hardness of the water (and therefore how much salt is needed to soften it, which makes sense to me). Either way, the process takes out calcium and magnesium, which are also plant nutrients.

I did have houseplant problems with our water softener but that was perhaps largely to do with its salt level being inadvertently set too high, enough that we could taste it. Using sodium softened water outdoors can be a problem over time also because an accumulation damages the soil structure. Of course you can have too much potassium as well but in general it's supposed to be less harmful for plants since plants nutritionally need more potassium than sodium. Plants do vary in their salt tolerance and since softeners vary in their salt levels depending how adjusted and how hard the water, it seems likely we would each have different experiences quite apart from there being different softening systems.

sooby said:

Potassium being a plant nutrient it is usually said to be less of a problem when watering with potassium softened water, than from the sodium ones. I've read that the amount of sodium depends on the hardness of the water (and therefore how much salt is needed to soften it, which makes sense to me). Either way, the process takes out calcium and magnesium, which are also plant nutrients.

That's good to know! I wondered about the potassium...knowing that it's a little better than salt helps ease the frustration of having to pay more. I believe it's required because it's better for the environment, which makes it more worth it to me, too. I just wish it weren't $20+/bag.

sooby said:
I did have houseplant problems with our water softener but that was perhaps largely to do with its salt level being inadvertently set too high, enough that we could taste it. Using sodium softened water outdoors can be a problem over time also because an accumulation damages the soil structure. Of course you can have too much potassium as well but in general it's supposed to be less harmful for plants since plants nutritionally need more potassium than sodium. Plants do vary in their salt tolerance and since softeners vary in their salt levels depending how adjusted and how hard the water, it seems likely we would each have different experiences quite apart from there being different softening systems.

I'm pretty sure the potassium chloride comes in at a point after the juncture to the water spigot. I'm pretty sure the water coming out of the hose is the hard 'city water'.

Water source per se does not cause damping off. But water source can and does affect things. Softened water is often too high in bad salts. From that perspective, tap water is probably better. But and a big BUTT at that - some tap water sucks and it can have oodles of bad chemicals. Check with your local Extension office and/or Master Gardener group.

RO or deionized is better if you have access. Again though - the problem is what is in the water. And regardless - it will have little effect on damping off.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG...

"Species of the soil organism Pythium are most often responsible for damping-off, but several other pathogens, including species of Rhizoctonia, Fusarium, and Phytophthora, can also cause decay. Decay is most likely to occur when old seeds or seed pieces are planted in cold wet soil, and is further increased by poor soil drainage, the use of green compost, and planting too deeply."

Bottom watering can help.

If you use seed trays with clear plastic tops, remove them for a few hours a day. If significant condensation is forming on them, remove them and let things dry out a bit. As soon as you see germination, remove them. I don't use them anymore.

Water with a hydrogen peroxide mix.

http://www.using-hydrogen-pero...

Media should be sterilized seed starting media. Any type garden soil is verboten for indoor use. And potting soil will be far worse than sterilized seed starting media.

Run fans over your seedlings indoors.

If humidity is too high, run a dehumidifier.

Clean pots with Physan or Consan. If not available use a bleach solution after washing with a soapy water.

While certainly not all daylilies, I start from 500 - several thousand seeds in my basement grow area each year.

is it ok to water seedlings with dehumidifier water? I don't think that was covered about, but my appologies if it was and I missed it

The seeds have sprouted and were transplanted in a bigger pot. When do you fertilize them and if so with what? They are in a greenhouse.

gargoyl52 said:is it ok to water seedlings with dehumidifier water? I don't think that was covered about, but my appologies if it was and I missed it

Lots of folks do that. It is pure water without chemicals.

dutchman said:The seeds have sprouted and were transplanted in a bigger pot. When do you fertilize them and if so with what? They are in a greenhouse.

I typically don't start fertilizing anything til it is 2-3 or so inches and has a sturdy stem, of course depending on the species. Then when still small, I use 1/2 strength.

Very tiny seedlings simply should not be fertilized IMHO.

beckygardener said:....
I do have a question about the gnats .... if you did bottom watering after the initial watering, would that deter gnats? I place all my cups into a plastic shoe box bin and could bottom water them instead of top watering.

I've heard of cut up pantyhose being used around cup bottoms to prevent gnats from getting in.

The adults lay eggs on the soil surface, so the related method I heard of was to stretch the panty hose over the top of the pot with a small hole for the plant to poke through, keeping the flies from getting to the surface. I wouldn't have been thought they'd be able to get at the medium at the bottom unless maybe the drainage holes are on the sides. The larvae can be at the base inside the pot though, so mesh there might stop the adults they turn into from getting out, unless maybe they are able to make their way to the top and get out there.