Ask a Question forum: Collecting and sharing seeds from PPAF plant

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Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
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Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
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jvdubb
Dec 26, 2015 8:22 AM CST
I bought Agastache Kudos Gold two years ago. This year it was loaded with seeds and I collected some. Is it illegal and/or unethical to offer the seeds in a seed swap? I'm unclear EXACTLY what propagation prohibited entails.
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
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greene
Dec 26, 2015 8:27 AM CST
You cannot propagate by cuttings as that would be an exact copy of the plant. Seeds are okay because there is no way to know if they will come true to the patented plant. An explanation is here:
http://www.successwithseed.org/article-archive/734-plant-pat...
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
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jvdubb
Dec 26, 2015 8:45 AM CST
Thank you Greene!
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
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jvdubb
Dec 26, 2015 8:48 AM CST
Oh, and excellent link too!!
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
Rabbit Keeper Critters Allowed Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages
Herbs Region: Georgia Region: United States of America Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Composter
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greene
Dec 26, 2015 3:23 PM CST
I tip my hat to you. Thank You! for the Acorn Acorn Acorn Hurray!
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
Name: David Laderoute
Zone 5B/6 - NW MO (Zone 5b)
Ignoring Zones altogether
Seed Starter Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DavidLMO
Dec 27, 2015 12:37 AM CST
PPAF means that a Plant Patent has been applied for. Until the plant is actually covered by a Patent, they could not do anything to one who asexually propagates it.
Seeking Feng Shui with my plants since 1976
central Illinois
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jmorth
Dec 27, 2015 2:06 AM CST
Not according to the article linked above.
Nothing that's been done can ever be changed.
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Dec 27, 2015 9:23 AM CST
Until a patent claim is rejected it is still protected under PPAF. That is the purpose of putting PPAF on the label, to let you know that it is protected.
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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William
Dec 28, 2015 4:34 AM CST
"Some persons mark articles sold with the terms “Patent Applied For” or “Patent Pending.” These phrases have no legal effect, but only give information that an application for patent has been filed in the USPTO. The protection afforded by a patent does not start until the actual grant of the patent. False use of these phrases or their equivalent is prohibited."
http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-informa...

I guess the law is always open for interpretations so one can always find different views on the subject. However reading what the US patent office has to say, I would think that David is correct here, BUT I also assume that when the patent is actually granted, you perhaps could end up in all sorts of trouble for what you have done before.

A different interpretation here:
"PPAF is a term used by our industry to put others on notice that a variety is “Plant Patent Applied For.” It is equivalent to the term “Patent Pending”. The purpose of giving notice in this way is to forewarn others that a patent application is in process and, upon issuance, the plant concerned becomes instantly subject to the patent holder’s right to exclude all non-permitted activity. Thus, growers and propagators will often accept a license in order to be “grandfathered in” to the expected issue of the plant patent."
http://www.planthaven.com/pdfs/PatentFAQ.pdf
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
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jvdubb
Dec 28, 2015 5:31 AM CST
Thank you all for the great info! It is good to know
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
Rabbit Keeper Critters Allowed Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages
Herbs Region: Georgia Region: United States of America Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Composter
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greene
Dec 28, 2015 6:48 AM CST
@jvdubb,
When you made this post you must have thought that it was wrong to sell or trade the seeds. The question was about seeds. It is perfectly legal (and morally correct) to share the seeds of a PPAF plant.

As for propagating by cuttings, and I know you did not ask about cuttings...do what you think is the right thing to do for your own conscience.

Okay, now send me some seeds. Thumbs up Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
jvdubb
Dec 28, 2015 7:43 AM CST
@Greene I will be happy to send you some seeds when you are all settled at your new place and ready to plant.
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
Rabbit Keeper Critters Allowed Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages
Herbs Region: Georgia Region: United States of America Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Composter
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greene
Dec 28, 2015 11:18 AM CST
Thanks!
(And thanks for keeping up with my current situation. *Blush* )
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"
Name: David Laderoute
Zone 5B/6 - NW MO (Zone 5b)
Ignoring Zones altogether
Seed Starter Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DavidLMO
Dec 28, 2015 11:26 AM CST
William said:"Some persons mark articles sold with the terms “Patent Applied For” or “Patent Pending.” These phrases have no legal effect, but only give information that an application for patent has been filed in the USPTO. The protection afforded by a patent does not start until the actual grant of the patent. False use of these phrases or their equivalent is prohibited."
http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-informa...

I guess the law is always open for interpretations so one can always find different views on the subject. However reading what the US patent office has to say, I would think that David is correct here, BUT I also assume that when the patent is actually granted, you perhaps could end up in all sorts of trouble for what you have done before.


I have been following this issue for decades. That is why I posted what I posted. Unless you see info of the Patent #, PPAF means squat and lawsuits have indicated as much. FWIW, I have never heard of an individual doing a cutting for thier own use getting into trouble. If one does cuttings for commercial purposes, they can and have gotten in trouble.

Now this IS about seeds. They are NOT covered. Seeds are Sexual - not Asexual.
Seeking Feng Shui with my plants since 1976
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
Cottage Gardener Houseplants Spiders! Heucheras Frogs and Toads Dahlias
Hummingbirder Sedums Winter Sowing Peonies Region: Michigan Garden Ideas: Level 2
Image
jvdubb
Dec 28, 2015 11:27 AM CST
I didn't mean to open a can of worms!
Name: David Laderoute
Zone 5B/6 - NW MO (Zone 5b)
Ignoring Zones altogether
Seed Starter Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DavidLMO
Dec 28, 2015 11:48 AM CST
No Can of worms Jennifer - just the exchange of info. The PPAF issue has created a lot of discussion. Between that and Trademarking plant names, the past 20 years has had a lot of controversy. The Trademarked name issue is even worse than PPAF issue. The same exact same plant can be sold under numerous names. Anyway, take yer seeds and do whatever you want. :-)
Seeking Feng Shui with my plants since 1976
Skåne, Sweden (Zone 7b)
Bulbs Lilies Bee Lover Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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William
Dec 28, 2015 12:12 PM CST
In my opinion, both your first and second posting was very informative, David Thumbs up

But, true this is about seeds, so perhaps I should mention that if one would grow something that gives apomictic (extremly unlikely) seeds, they would seem to be protected by the plant patent: http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/patent-basics/t...
Name: David Laderoute
Zone 5B/6 - NW MO (Zone 5b)
Ignoring Zones altogether
Seed Starter Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Level 1
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DavidLMO
Dec 28, 2015 12:25 PM CST
:-) I just ignore all that BS entirely. But I would never sell something coming from a cutting commercially. For my own personal use is entirely another matter.

And if I happened to "grow something that gives apomictic (extremly unlikely) seeds" I simply would not tell anyone. Big Grin
Seeking Feng Shui with my plants since 1976
Name: Greene
Savannah, GA (Sunset 28) (Zone 8b)
Rabbit Keeper Critters Allowed Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages
Herbs Region: Georgia Region: United States of America Native Plants and Wildflowers Dog Lover Composter
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greene
Dec 28, 2015 3:51 PM CST
jvdubb, you have the answer to your question. Thumbs up

If others want to have a lively discussion about something else...a different subject not related to the seed question... Whistling well, there is lots of room to create a new thread for that purpose. Please consider that each post to this thread results in notification to the original poster. Thumbs up

I'll be moving along now...
Sunset Zone 28, AHS Heat Zone 9, USDA zone 8b~~"Leaf of Faith"

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