to you for all your efforts in building up your soil, Rick.

When I go home tonight, I will need to tell my soil how much I appreciate them being classified as a loam.

>> I will need to tell my soil how much I appreciate

Amen!

In the other hand, where's the challenge in soils you can ALREADY grow things in?
The feeling of accomplishment, of being needed?

I guess maintaining and improving soil could be just as satisfying as "pedogenesis", but when I turn a square yard that not even weeds will grow on into fourishing Zinnias or Bok Choy, I feel as if I have done something substantial for the earth itself.

Probably the digging up, removing, screening and mixing are more due to my impatience and cheapness than true necessity.

If I (bought and) laid down 8-12" of something that plants could grow in, the rocks and clay under that would still gradually turn into "something" ... somewhat usefull ... over enough years. If I (bought and) added even more on top every year.

But I do like to "make soil" even if it is strenuous and time-consuming! It's less expensive than "store bought soil".

On the other hand, if I had access to unlimited leaves, grass clippings, compost and swadust, many assure me I could go the "lasagna" route instead.

I think of that as "sheet composting plus growing plants in the unfinished compost".

I guess it is stubburnness or inability to change that makes that unattractive to me (plus not having the raw material for more than 1/4" of 'lasagna', let alone 6-12").

I think of growing in soil as the "right way" not in unfinished compost. But many people say it works fine.

I think of "cultivating the soil" as something that I do, with pick and shovel and amendments, not something that worms and frost heaves and elluviation or other magic do over a period of years. That seems like waiting for glaciers, flooding and sedimentation to do the pedogenesis for me.

And why let the worms have all the sense of accomplishement?

Plus, even if I waited for years, adding 6" - 8" of compost or compost-makings every year, the knoweldge that everything under the duff layer was 30% to 50% rocks would make me feel like a very slack cultivator of the soil.

I guess I'm a dinosaur.

We have polenty of trees so tons of leaves for compost. Hubby takes it down a hill & into the woods with a tarp. The leaves are from trees scattered around the property not the wooded area. That would be too much work.

Rick - you would have a wonderful conversation with the pedologist in our department - trying to speed up the soil forming process with your manual labor. I live on an alluvial fan so I am grateful for the flooding and the sedimentation. I don't have to worry about being needed - there are always copious amounts of weeds that "need" to be moved.

I did dig up almost all of my front lawn, one shovelful at a time. And I did spend many hours shaking the soil from the grass so that I can reclaim as much of the soil as possible. Especially since there were so many earthworms in that layer. I was able to fill up the area behind the retaining wall with clods of lawn that I overlay with compost (Ifinished and unfinished since I did not have enough of the finished stuff but wanted to plant some veggies in there this year) and the reclaimed soil.. I was determined not to have to buy soil - so in that way, we are alike.



vegetable bed in July one month after planting


I have an informal compost bin in the back that I will continue to fill with plant material and use them in the fall to continue to raise up the bed.

Nice work. I see you are in Sacramento ... we lived in Redding for a number of years so similar climate. It appears they don't ban you from growing veggies in front yards in Sacto. I didn't know whether they did or not. That's good. If I didn't have so many huge tree roots in my front yard here (along with Bermuda grass), I'd do the same thing.

Hi Tee - actually, yes, growing veggies in the front yard was banned up until 2 years ago. Someone in the northern part of Sacramento filed a complaint against a neighbor who was growing tomatoes in the front, and the gardener counter-complained and got the city council to reconsider the ban. Now, the only stipulation is that the vegetation (of any kind) is kept "neat."

This area of the front yard got sun most of the day, and was the perfect vegetable garden spot. I do have a few flowers intermingled here and there to give it some color. The area of the front yard where I have crape myrtle roots, I can only plant perennials and shallow rooted ground covers. But, 100% of my lawn is gone.

Dianne,

>> But, 100% of my lawn is gone.

Amen to replacing lawn with real plants!

>> you would have a wonderful conversation with the pedologist in our department - trying to speed up the soil forming process with your manual labor.

Exactly! That was my main reason for getting into gardening. Now I kind of like those flower-things, too. And I enjoy growing some vegetables ... the problem there is that I only like EATING very few of them!

>> I was determined not to have to buy soil - so in that way, we are alike.

Yeah! It seems like a contradiction in terms to me, or at least some kind of ostentatious, conspicuous consumption. "Buy soil"? Can they even DO that??!??

That's as bad as buying water (thoguh we do that, now, either for fancy "designer water" or to get around the fact that some cities have nasty stuff in their pipes.

I hope we don't have to buy individual containers of breathable air any time soon ... <political opinions deleted>.


>> ... And I did spend many hours shaking the soil from the grass so that I can reclaim as much of the soil as possible.
>> I was able to fill up the area behind the retaining wall with clods of lawn that I overlay with compost

I only have a little sod to compost, but it's the richest stuff that I DO have to compost.

However, sod is so dense that it only breaks down slowly. I haven't found any way to speed that up other than chopping it into small pieces with a mattock, and that is SLOW.

I do hope that all the roots enrich my compost with mycorhyzzia.

Anyone, don't like eating your veggies from your garden? Donate to food banks.

Hmmm! I can offer both greens AND meat ... if you like slugs, that is.

Ew!!! I'd try ants, but slugs are pushing it.

I have soils that sound similar to yours, Rick. Bright gold, thick, rocky, clay. And topped of with, you might guess - Bermuda grass.

So for vegetables, I've done raised beds surrounded by old RR ties (old enough that the creosote isn't an issue). My two compost bins sit directly *in* the garden, so none of the Bermuda grass infests my bins. It limits my growing space a little, but saves a lot of transfer time and energy, especially as that is the area that needs the compost the worst.

I'm somewhat fanatical - every kitchen scrap, dog and husband hair, all paper towels, grass clippings and the coffee grounds from my favorite coffee shop (twice a week) go into the bins. I shred all of my non-shiny junk mail and that works for my "browns". Cardboard is laid wherever I next want to plant as a weed block. I love the idea of recycling and keeping stuff out of the landfills that could be so helpful to my gardening. It all works.

>> In the end, only kindness matters.

I like that!

>> Bermuda grass.

You win the "awfullest soil" competition! Anyone with bermuda grass has it worse than anyone without. I'll even take my horsetail, Ranunculus / Buttercup , Cardamine / Bittercress and purslane in preference to THAT.

>> Bright gold, thick, rocky, clay.

It sounds prettier than my dark gray, but if we had a look-alike contest for kindergarten modelling clay, I might win. (That is to say, "lose".)

>> I'm somewhat fanatical - every kitchen scrap ...

I think we have to be fanatical when we don't have access to lots of lawn clippings, leaves or manure. I've started saving non-glossy paper during seasons when the garden is producing green things that can go into the pile when dead. But most of the year, most of what I have is woody.

Local coffee shops either "mix the grounds with their garbage and trash", or have it recycled comemrically by Cedar Grove.

My take on CG (though this may vary by region) is that they get biosolids and yard waste for free, mix it with VAST amouns of sawdust, and then charge for it through the nose.

Maybe the retail bags of CG compost are better quality than the cubic-yard dirt-yard CG "compost". My dirt-yard guy saw me grimacing at that pile, then later asking him where the compost was ... he admitted that he calls their CG "compost" MULCH ... when he sells any.

I think it was $38 or $42 per yard delivered, and
I just won't pay that for flavored sawdust!

If I had some way to haul biosolids, they're free! The manager of that plant seemed eager to give it away to someone other than CG - I wish he had a bagger! I would haul 60% water / 40% biosolids in my trunk, if it were in bags.

Yep, anything beats Bermuda grass. I've got a backyard full of it too. The bane of my gardening existence.

LOL - it's true, my sticky clay is very pretty.

I consider myself very lucky with this particular coffee shop - they only put grounds, filters and tea bags in my bags. They're very committed to recycling, in return, I gave them lots of fresh tomatoes. Such a deal. I'm going to plant zinnias for them next spring so they can have flutterbys in their outdoor sitting area. Maybe a few cone flowers.....

We don't have CG here (we don't have a LOT of things here!) but there is a place called "Barky Beaver" that sells bark, "mushroom" compost (still really wondering what the heck that stuff really is) and topsoil (won't do *that* again). I think much of their stuff they get from lumber processing. Lots of hardwood cutting around here.

So I get my free stuff from the next cities landscape waste yard - I do get a fair amount of trash, but I'm totally into free. And they have a loader, shew!

My personal feeling is that composting has been made to sound way more complicated that it needs to be! If you live in a very tight, city environment, then I understand using enclosed bins, etc. (and more's the pity to you), but if you have any amount of room I would say just make a couple of heaps (and if necessary, use a "privacy screen" of some type around them). We catch the grass clippings with our lawnmower and mostly use them as mulch on the garden (which then turns into compost), and when the grass in the garden gets too deep we add it to the "new" compost pile, along with all the veg scraps that we accumulate from harvesting the garden. The "old" compost pile, from last year, is used for planting and side-dressing over the course of the gardening year. One thing that I have found to really help - despite my initial skepticism - is "compst starter." I'm sure there are many different types, but I bought a bag from "Gardens Alive" a couple of years ago and toss in a cupful or so every so often, and then 3 or 4 times over the course of summer sort of turn the pile over. Shade is also a good thing, so your compost pile retains some moisture. Lacking the space for a compost pile, you can always just dig the scraps and stuff into your garden wherever space allows -- it WILL rot down over time. (just don't make the mistake that my ex and I did years ago and decide to use "fish guts" to fertilize the corn "like the Indians did"... skunks really like fish guts and in the process also dig up the plants, )

Happy gardening -- just don't overthink it!

That compost starter is something I've been thinking about Sandy. Maybe I'll give it a try.
This year I was much more careful about always adding some soil with each set of layers. Mostly grass clippings with the browns. I've only turned it twice and there is a huge difference from past years. I've actually got decent compost in less than a year!

No compost starter for me. I'm too cheap to spend $ on something to just throw in the compost. I get plenty of fine compost without it, always have. The only thing I actually ever buy for composting is straw, and then only when I run out of leaves. A $7 bale of straw goes a long way.

Karen

A big wire ring filled with leaves will make great compost in a fairly short time.

My husband periodically adds to compost to make it work faster. I am not sure what he uses.

I think that chopping up sticks, keeping it moist, and having as big a pile as possible are the biggest factors in speeding up the composting process.

Instead of buying innoculum, you can just transfer a little from the most active part of an older heap to the new heap. Or, as Eclayn said, mix in some soil from a rich, organic bed.

But I agree with Weedwhacker: if you pile it, it will compost!

Yeah.... I've gone back and forth on using a starter when things get really slow. But I've found that when I add grass clippings or coffee grounds that things heat back up (I like a hot pile for seed busting) so I think it's probably the moisture I lack. That, and I'm really bad about chopping things up.