stone said:

Actually....
I don't need a place to entertain... until someone visits... soon enough then to seek a comfortable spot for that.

Where the kids play....
Watch what attracts them, how they want to play... and then design around that.

Too many people design first... and then waste a lot of effort trying to get the plants and people to stick to the design.

Crazy seeing people keep trimming back a shrub or tree that wants to be large.

Or placing an outdoor entertainment facility in a location that is never used.

When I want a path through the garden.... I put it where I've been walking...

And, I like to cook outside.... I have outside kitchens that move around... as I search for that perfect spot....

And.... plants that move around as I search for the spot where they will happily grow without constant attention.

I've been gardening in the area some 28 years, and I still don't necessarily know where a plant is going to grow...

A trick that I try to teach people out in their yards.... when a plant is finally happy... stop moving it.

Sadly, I help people that insist on moving a patch of plants when they suddenly start to thrive...
In middle GA, it's a lot harder to garden than Chicago, and sometimes plants will thrive in a single location in the entire yard... and nowhere else.

Agree. Each person should do the garden that works for them.

****Only the person that didn't plan will plant a bush that is too large for that area... Lol. What a silly thing to do.

And I've had 17 kids. Plus I have 11 grand kids.... I know where kids play. They play in the sand box, and on the swings where ever that may be... And that will be wherever I put it.

No one has to plan or engineer their yard. NO ONE. 😊 👍🏻👍🏻


But just like any building or structure that you don't engineer, plan and build... those who do not will never have much more than a log hut to live in. And the same for out door land scaping.

Now I used to design and manage the installation of landscapes for Commercial properties.

There is not a single city park, Shopping center, or Business park that would hire me if I told them that I really had no clue what I was going to install or end up with... Or how much it was going to cost because who knows what will happen or when I will be finished... "I have no structured plan"

If I told any one of those Commercial customers that I was going to just start sticking things in the ground kind of hap hazardly and see what happened then move it around if I didn't like it or if it didn't work.. and sort of build a landscape around where the transients loiter ... possibly taking about 5 years to finally complete whatever it was I finally eventually came up with after seeing whatever the weeds wanted to do... because we got to respect those weeds..,

Well... there is not a Contracter in existence that would have hired me or considered me qualified.

I had to know I was doing it right the first time. Putting in the RIGHT plants and designing the correct irrigation system for it all while making it convenient for their customers.

I'm assuming you have never taken gardening and landscaping to that level?

(You would have to be professional and extremely knowledgeable to do it.).

:thumbsup:

When someone has $40,000 and needs a beautiful working landscape installed and ready for inspection in 90 days...

Ya don't mosey around playing the guessing game. 😄😄😄

*** And you don't waste their money.
*** You don't do it wrong.
*** You know what looks good and what will work BEFORE YOU BEGIN.

You create a working design and give them a bid to match their budget or you are out the door with the rest of the amateurs. 😉

Planning is not hard and it really saves you a lot of work. Learn all you can about what you are trying to do... so by the time you are finished you will have successfully achieved and maintained that which you hoped to in the beginning.

In any case... I've said all that needs to be said. There is plenty of awesome advise here and I think she has some sort of idea where she wants to end up and she can pick and choose which ever ideas work for her.

Good luck!!

Thanks everyone! The advice and ideas here have all been amazing!

I actually just got back from the local nursery (I think I've only been to one once in my life!!) and took tons of pictures and am starting to figure out what I like and what I don't! Also went to Home Depot and got some supplies to start making the beds and edging. Progress!!

I think my overall goal here is to create something that is pretty to look at. Simple! We entertain outside as much as weather allows and the yard has been such an eyesore (if you think it's bad now, you should have seen it before the fence!) for years now. I would love to do veggies, but don't know where that fits into the plan yet. Maybe I'll find a place on the side for them. TBD on that.

I know people have said to tear up the grass and start in the middle, but I'm hesitant. As I stated in my first post, I've only succeeded so far at basil (proud basil grower photo below)! So we are going to start small with the borders and work our way around. I still feel like it's a pretty big project being so green (ha!) at this. I think I'm going to order bulbs online this week and then I have some work to do!

Thanks again everyone! You've been tremendous!!

Keep the lawn. 😉 👍🏻

(I would) 😀

I'd also keep the lawn or it all could be much too overwhelming to handle, spoiling the fun.

dmarie17 said:Thanks everyone! The advice and ideas here have all been amazing!

I actually just got back from the local nursery (I think I've only been to one once in my life!!) and took tons of pictures and am starting to figure out what I like and what I don't! Also went to Home Depot and got some supplies to start making the beds and edging. Progress!!

I think my overall goal here is to create something that is pretty to look at. Simple! We entertain outside as much as weather allows and the yard has been such an eyesore (if you think it's bad now, you should have seen it before the fence!) for years now. I would love to do veggies, but don't know where that fits into the plan yet. Maybe I'll find a place on the side for them. TBD on that.

I know people have said to tear up the grass and start in the middle, but I'm hesitant. As I stated in my first post, I've only succeeded so far at basil (proud basil grower photo below)! So we are going to start small with the borders and work our way around. I still feel like it's a pretty big project being so green (ha!) at this. I think I'm going to order bulbs online this week and then I have some work to do!

Thanks again everyone! You've been tremendous!!

I would say you have an excellent start and your basil is gorgeous From reading all of the comments you can see how everyone has their own style and way of doing things, but the common denominator is that we all love our gardens and flowers and working in them. My daughters both started out saying they didn't like to work in the yard and I've even converted them The main thing is to enjoy yourself and be proud of the work you do - have fun!!!

Dawn,

Keep in mind that we're mid-late August already. The snow will be here before you know it. If you start a large project now, you're going to feel a lot of pressure to finish before the snow. Stick to the small stuff for now like some bedd and window shopping at nurseries. You'll have plenty of time over the winter months to think about what you might want to do.

You might also consider subscribing to some gardening catalogs to go through for more ideas. However, I wouldn't buy from a catalog before asking here if someone already has what you're looking for. They'll be able to give you way more information than any catalog. Plus, they may even be willing to share.

One note on that sharing thing... if you think people here are ready to give advice, just wait until you start asking for plants. You had better have a L-A-R-G-E space to put what you get. Just sayin' !

dmarie17 said:. I would love to do veggies, but don't know where that fits into the plan yet. Maybe I'll find a place on the side for them. TBD on that.

I know people have said to tear up the grass and start in the middle, but I'm hesitant. As I stated in my first post, I've only succeeded so far at basil.

Veggies need all day sun.
Anyone that wants to successfully grow some veggies will plant them in the most suitable location.

Trying to shoehorn veggies as an afterthought, somewhere next to a tall fence.... Means that you still won't have any success with them.

Like the lady harping on planning keeps insisting.... Gotta put stuff where it will grow.... And a plan for the veggies should be forefront if you want to grow them.... They won't grow in part day sunlight.

Too many people have wanted me to come in and plant them a veggie garden after they already planted turf grass in the best spots for a vegetable garden.

It just doesn't work that way... To grow vegetables, always pick the spot that grows the lushest patch of lawn.... Get rid of the exotic turf, and then... You will be able to grow delicious healthy organic produce.


Re the people that are voting for the useless turf...
You can have turf around the outside of the vegetable beds...

After you get an idea of what size veggie beds are most comfortable to work with, you can go for permanent raised beds with turf down the walkways...

You can't eat that turf, and it's of no use to the birds and pollinators either.

What Stone says about growing veggies is true for a lot of them. But, depending on what you're thinking of growing, you may not need a huge area. Small things such as radish could be put on the front edge of a bed that gets at least 6 hours of sun each day. Another thing to consider is to mix some herbs in with the flowers in sunny beds. Things like basil and thyme should do well, along with dill, chives and parsley. They'll be green and attract pollinators when in bloom. Right now, I have basil and bronze fennel in my small sun garden, with radish on the edge. All are doing well. Herbs can be put literally anywhere they'll get sun, either in pots ore directly in the ground. If they get too big, cut 'em down and dry them. Or, become popular in the neighborhood by offering fresh herbs.

Another thing to consider... carefully, is mint. There are a number of varieties available from peppermint to spearmint to things like chocolate and orange mint. BUT, and this is a big one, mint can be invasive. Even ig kept in pots, you still need to keep and eye on it. I actually planted mine directly in the ground in hopes that it will spread. (It smells great when mowed!)

Well what I have noticed is that we are all giving her advise on what to do based on our location and personal preference.

I don't think she wants a veggie garden right now.

Climates are very different in temperature and humidity. Utah is dry hot air. (Desert like)

What that means for plants is that scorch is inevitable unless you can cool the plant. Scorch is where the dry hot air evaporates the moisture from the leaves faster than the roots are capable of transfering moisture from the soil to the leaves. In a more humid climate there is enough moisture in the air not to scorch the vegetable plants and it thins the direct sunlight.

In Utah where we grow veggies we usually need to shade the veggies from the hottest late afternoon sun just to keep them alive. Our veggie gardens do best by receiving 7 hours sunlight.

In Utah it's common to grow our veggie gardens on the west side next to a fence or with fruit trees planted on the west side of the garden for shade relief.

So look around you and see what successful yards around you are doing. Whatever they are doing... you can do it too. 😊.


Just do your own thing.
Create your own masterpiece that fits in with your life style. 👍🏻👍🏻


(Edit). Nothing makes an ornamental garden look clean like patches of well maintained lawn. 😉😉

Dawn, some year if you do feel an urge to add veggies, you might enjoy looking for very ornamental varieties. Then you can show guests beautiful veggies as well as edible flowers like Nasturtiums. I'm thinking right now of Frank Morton's "Flashy" series of lettuce varieties. They look like someone put a firecracker in several cans of paint! And pole beans that are intense purple (until cooked). There are (?cabbage?) varieties that last all winter with showy green and purple leaves. Golden snow pea pods with two-tone purple blooms!

Full sun is very important for vegetable yield and even maturing for some varieties, but some can handle some shade. As long as you don't put immovable trees and shrubs in all the sunniest spots, relocating beds is an option. More work, yes, but it is YOUR garden, and you can do anything that you want and enjoy. (Those of us with shady yards are used to doing without full sun for every vegetable bed.)

I'm really glad that Betsy gave so many reason for the value of planning ahead. I hadn't considered most of those, and a few motivate even me to plan ahead more than I do. Certainly the reasons given are all valid for contractors, or anyone intent on minimizing costs and rework, who has precisely known goals that they don't expect to change. I'm even starting to realize that, yes, for some people, planning IS practical for some people because they have so much experience they can predict what will happen a year or three ahead of time.

I even realized that I DO plan ahead (more) when doing things in the garden that I've done 3-4 times before. That was a revelation to me! I usually think of myself as always following the "no-plan" hobby garden method, but that's not true. Thank you, Betsy!


In engineering, we HAVE TO plan ahead as much as possible, driven by the demons of cost and calendar. But even there, once we get underway and dig in, we often discover things that we didn't know at the beginning.

There may be fields where that can be avoided, if you know enough and think hard enough, and have enough experience, like an architect having a detailed blueprint of the whole house before anyone pours concrete or even digs the basement.

But in software engineering, we usually "plan" to do the "waterfall model" where you jump off the cliff once, and land exactly where you planned to land, with everything tidy around you.

But we always instead have to execute the "iterative model", where you jump off the cliff, get part way down, and then everyone says: "OH DEAR! We didn't think of THAT!!"

The you pop back up to the top of the cliff, or half-way-back-up, re-plan, and jump again.

We might have to re-organize in large or small ways many times as we discover all the things we didn't know at the beginning.

Engineers are DRIVEN to that expensive, slow iterative model because any substantially new project has new elements that might look easy from 30,000 feet, but when you get down to ground level and start wrestling the alligators into the shoe-boxes you had planned for them, sometimes you find out that those alligators don't fit. (BTW, I don't know if this is a cliche outside engineering circles, but "Everything looks easy from a great enough distance.")

The less you know on Day One, the more your path forward has branches and loop-backs. It is a less efficient method for engineers that are omniscient, or that are so experienced with that exact kind of project that they "know it all" even before they dive into the details.

Probably "100% pre-planned" is good for someone who already knows their goals and most of the tradeoffs, and all necessary methods, and available materials, intimately.

Probably "get started, have fun, and adjust as you learn" will work better for someone with less experience and changing goals (finding out what I like by trying it has opened my eyes a few times).

But certainly: most people starting a hobby have as one goal "having fun". That's when personality reigns supreme. Everyone likes something different, and it changes from year to year or week to week.

An engineer would scowl and say: "Whaddaya mean, 'Changing goals'?!? Phooey! I can't hit a moving target!!
Besides, it will take longer and cost more."

A hobbyist would smile and say: "That keeps it interesting. I bet I learn something that I didn't expect."

RickCorey said:

Probably "100% pre-planned" is good for someone who already knows their goals and most of the tradeoffs, and all necessary methods, and available materials, intimately.

Probably "get started, have fun, and adjust as you learn" will work better for someone with less experience and changing goals (finding out what I like by trying it has opened my eyes a few times).

But certainly: most people starting a hobby have as one goal "having fun". That's when personality reigns supreme. Everyone likes something different, and it changes from year to year or week to week.

We kinda got off the track of helping a new gardener...

I'm considering suggesting moving the philosophy segment to a new thread (or something) where we could all debate to our heart's content....

I've actually gardened in the lake Michigan area.... The all day sun concept for an edible garden holds true there.

Here in GA, it gets as complicated as in Utah.

In a previous post, the idea of working in plenty of irrigation lines from the planning stage was brought up...
I would point to southern California as a working example of what makes that a poor design.

They're fining people for dumping drinking water on their useless turf...

I go past a patch of turf on my way to the gardens where I've been planting stuff...
Every time I drive past, they have the sprinklers going... for turf next to the street!
Very poor design.
In the same conditions, clay soil next to the street, I put in a butterfly garden, it has flowers in bloom, host plants for the caterpillars, and looks good all year without a drop of supplemental water.

So... I reckon that's planning... Conservation is an important goal...

In this day and age of global climate change, we need to plant the right stuff in the right place where it will thrive without the need to waste drinking water, and other wise change the ecosystem in a poorly thought out attempt to grow something inappropriate to the location.

And... If we start a garden philosophy thread, I'll address the children sandbox issue, and talk about the different soil types in the same garden, as well as how the cold air at night affects different areas of the garden differently.... and how hot it is here in the summer....

http://onlineathens.com/mobile...

>> We kinda got off the track of helping a new gardener...

True.

>> I'm considering suggesting moving the philosophy segment to a new thread (or something) where we could all debate to our heart's content....

One drawback to that: people who like to plan won't need to read it; they already know that planning is the right answer for themselves.

People who would find lots more pre-planning burdensome and less fun, won't read it unless they want to be talked out of doing what they like to do.

I think there's value in discussing different philosophies and why different people have different philosophies and different goals, but I seldom notice much change resulting from such discussions. Just, at best, the realization that reasonable people DO have different goals and philosophies.

I had no idea that gardening could be so philosophic and controversial!! No worries about being off track, I'm reading everything and takin it all in!

I also had no idea it was so hard! I started digging this weekend and was drenched, dirty and calloused by the time in less than an hour! I am having fun though.

RickCorey - I love the idea of growing small veggies and herbs within the flowers (I think RickM mentioned this also)! That seems a lot more manageable than a separate veggie garden (for now!)

RickM - thank you for the advice on mint. I think I've heard that before, but wouldn't have remembered until it was too late. Tell me more about this: One note on that sharing thing... if you think people here are ready to give advice, just wait until you start asking for plants. You had better have a L-A-R-G-E space to put what you get. Just sayin' !
People just give away plants? Why would they do that when plants are so expensive (learned that this week too!!)??

dmarie17 said:I had no idea that gardening could be so philosophic and controversial!! No worries about being off track, I'm reading everything and takin it all in!

I also had no idea it was so hard! I started digging this weekend and was drenched, dirty and calloused by the time in less than an hour! I am having fun though.

RickCorey - I love the idea of growing small veggies and herbs within the flowers (I think RickM mentioned this also)! That seems a lot more manageable than a separate veggie garden (for now!)

RickM - thank you for the advice on mint. I think I've heard that before, but wouldn't have remembered until it was too late. Tell me more about this: One note on that sharing thing... if you think people here are ready to give advice, just wait until you start asking for plants. You had better have a L-A-R-G-E space to put what you get. Just sayin' !
People just give away plants? Why would they do that when plants are so expensive (learned that this week too!!)??

Dawn you have just been introduced to gardening the fun (not Martha Stewart) way! When I garden I wear old clothes, flip flops (unless sturdier shoes are required ), secure hair out of face, and come inside absolutely filthy most of the time-depending on what I'm doing and how much the dog "helps". I figure the sweat and dirt are rewards for a job well done I also wear gardening gloves - for normal planting, weeding, etc. I use the Atlas Nitrile Touch gloves because they are more form fitting to the hand and breath well and "feel" the weeds better, and I wear sturdier ones for heavy duty gardening. I don't seem to get the blisters with the Nitrile gloves and I'm usually out there HOURS at a time. And as for sharing plants, if I have extra or need to split something off I try to share with someone. Don't think I've ever sold anything, but I've shared a lot (my children seem to like the "share" idea real well ) Glad you're having a good time with it and be sure to post pictures one of these days

dmarie17 said:I had no idea that gardening could be so philosophic and controversial!! No worries about being off track, I'm reading everything and takin it all in!

I also had no idea it was so hard! I started digging this weekend and was drenched, dirty and calloused by the time in less than an hour! I am having fun though.

RickCorey - I love the idea of growing small veggies and herbs within the flowers (I think RickM mentioned this also)! That seems a lot more manageable than a separate veggie garden (for now!)

RickM - thank you for the advice on mint. I think I've heard that before, but wouldn't have remembered until it was too late. Tell me more about this: One note on that sharing thing... if you think people here are ready to give advice, just wait until you start asking for plants. You had better have a L-A-R-G-E space to put what you get. Just sayin' !
People just give away plants? Why would they do that when plants are so expensive (learned that this week too!!)??

Yepperoony! Welcome to the REAL fun of gardening. Shows on TV (Martha Stewart... hate that woman) never show what it takes to get that beautiful lawn and/or garden. As a result, when someone decides to jump right in, they get overwhelmed at the amount of work involved. Then again, when you finish for the day, step back and look, you can say with confidence and a smile... I did that!

Yes, there are days when you're drenched with sweat, the dirt under your fingernails has dirt under it. Your back hurts. Your shoulders hurt. Your hands hurt. Things that you didn't even know could hurt.. hurt!

So, you take a warm shower, put on some comfy lounging clothes, grab a glass of wine and look at what you've accomplished. Before you know it, it's beautiful. It's not done. It's never done! You'll always find once little space yearning for something. And when family and friends stop by, you have a huge sense of pride showing off.

Now, as far as the giving away of plants, think of it like your neighbor that planted 10 zucchini seeds and now has a mountain of zucchini. They're giving it away to anybody that will take it. Plants are sort of like that. Here in the Mid-Atlantic, we have in-person plant swaps twice a year as a group. We all list what we have extras of or what we're looking for. We call dibs on what we want. On the appointed day, we all meet a someones' house and swap plants, stories, food, whatever. (ok, there is a limit on the what ever! )

Our next swap is in a couple of weeks. Between the 17 people that are registered in the swap tool, we have 175 unique items being offered. I personally have 27 items listed as available, with 40 requests (multiples of some things.)

So, you're probably wondering where the 'extras' come from. After the gardens are going for a few years, you find that some things want to take over. Others just don't appeal to you like they did when they were first acquired. Both types are great candidates to share through swapping. At our spring swap, I had called dibs on 27 items. I came home with over 40. Everyone brings more than requested and someone is always willing to take home the 'stray'.

Plant swapping, whether through a group or just with neighbors, allows you to create a more diverse garden in terms of texture, color, etc. We all build on each others experiences.

Actually, once the weather cools down, I will be shipping some hosta to a couple of people that they can't get in their area.

dmarie17 said:I had no idea that gardening could be so philosophic and controversial!! No worries about being off track, I'm reading everything and takin it all in!

I also had no idea it was so hard! I started digging this weekend and was drenched, dirty and calloused by the time in less than an hour! I am having fun though.

People just give away plants? Why would they do that when plants are so expensive (learned that this week too!!)??

Re controversial....
Wait till you've started hearing about organic vs "conventional".
A tidy garden vs trap crops, identifying natives, encouraging butterfly host plants...
Also, "weeds" as nutrient accumulators, as soil deffeincy detectives, as nurseries for the intentional plants....

Re "hard"
As we get experience, it gets less difficult, we get experience with the tools, and we learn to use them more effectively, we get experience with the garden, and learn when to work the soil at the optimum workability.... Learn how to deal with the weedy turf....

Re free plants...
While some people give away their invasives.... Watch those people...
Some of us get real excited about some of the unusual plants we're growing, and propagate extras...
Right now in my truck, I have seed grown centrosema and virginia costal mallow (kosteletzkya) and snake cotton I'm carrying to someone.... The partridge pea and blue curls that I have potted aren't blooming, so I left them at the house...

Stone makes a good point when swapping plants... ALWAYS ask about growth characteristics. Sometimes you want an invasive plant, but usually you don't.

For example, I'm searching for Bracken Fern (pteridium aquilinum). It can be invasive, and I have the perfect spot for that particular habit.

Then again, something like mint isn't necessarily something you want taking over your lawn. (Although, it will smell great when you mow )

RickM said:Stone makes a good point when swapping plants... ALWAYS ask about growth characteristics. Sometimes you want an invasive plant, but usually you don't.

For example, I'm searching for Bracken Fern (pteridium aquilinum). It can be invasive, and I have the perfect spot for that particular habit.

Then again, something like mint isn't necessarily something you want taking over your lawn. (Although, it will smell great when you mow )

Totally agree with these guys When I was "given" two "small" pots of spearmint to make mint sweet tea (a family tradition) I planted them both in the ground in an area that I didn't care if it moved a "little". I'm pretty sure that one spread all the way to China by the time it was done Luckily it was next to the driveway so it didn't come up through the cement although I'm sure it tried On the plus side I did get LOTS of mint for my tea! Chameleon was another one I chose NOT to move with me - although I loved the color, it too decided the lawn was the place to move to Dawn - you just didn't know what a fun and diverse bunch of people you would be getting connected with