Davi said:I vote for that, too, Gleni! I've long objected to hybridizers purposely developing hardy evergreens. With the possibility of rust evolving, nobody needs rust overwintering under the snow in the north on green foliage. Love daylilies that lose all their leaves at some point. That's called "vacation time"!!!
Davi said:While I understand the logic, Sue, the terminology related to "dormant" daylilies has been around so long it will be a disservice to the buying public to suddenly change to "deciduous" describing foliage habit when "dormant" has be relied on to note a particular growing habit as well.
Davi said:It is highly desirable for plants to lose their leaves IMHO just from the rust issue alone. It is particularly problematic to people who have both northern and southern gardens....Larry Grace and Jamie Gossard come to mind. They can easily register an evergreen as deciduous (not saying they will) because where they grow some of their evergreen registrations in the north, the plants can and will lose their leaves after being frozen solid.
Davi said: But without an open discussion about dormant growing habit and a place to register this growing habit on the registration form as well, I believe you leave the door open to misregistration. This is probably the most dishonest part of the registration process anyway because many hybridizers register in the off season....sometimes when daylilies are under snow and they just guess about foliage habit.
Davi said:The AHS truly does need to learn more about dormancy and the differences in the crowns of evergreens vs dormants. The "it's five o'clock somewhere" approach works in other parts of my life....but I can see this leading down a road I don't want to travel with daylilies. There is no consumer advocacy group or a deciduous daylily police to monitor daylilies that are registered incorrectly, is there??
JWWC said:
I think this is part of the problem though. The presumption that a registered dormant is therefore hardy or hardier than a semi- or evergreen.
JWWC said:
I'd like to see them separate the growing habit, foliage type, and specifically identify the location where these traits were measured.
Char said:
There is a presumption that a registered dormant is hardier. The difference between evergreen, semi-evergreen and dormant has meant more than simply saying foliage habit in botanical terms and included a way to explain the growth habit. The temporarily suspended growth of an evergreen in the north is very different from what we referred to as a "dormant" with a resting bud that does not break dormancy until spring. A deciduous daylily that will thrive in southern climates would be a huge step forward in the battle with rust. At the same time, daylilies from the south registered as deciduous, be it from dead evergreen leaves seen in the north or an actual resting bud deciduous, will make trying to figure out what deciduous plants will thrive and grow in colder areas more difficult to determine. Regional growers, regional hybridizers, hybridizers working in similar climates and zones, as well as hybridizers whom you have come to know produce daylilies which not only survive but thrive in your garden, will become even more important when looking to purchase daylilies.
Char said:
The location where the traits are measured is in the hybridizers garden. They are then recorded on the registration form and in written descriptions if a hybridizer does them.
I'd like to see consistency in how evergreen, semi-evergreen and deciduous are presented by AHS.
Char said:
From the Reg instructions
* FOLIAGE HABIT
Choose the abbreviation which best applies to your cultivar. Daylilies have three types of growth.
Evergreen (ev.)
These daylilies retain their foliage throughout the year. In the north, these plants over winter as a mound of frozen pale green foliage. Evergreens may resume growth during
a mid-winter thaw in mild climates.
Semi-evergreen (sev.)
The foliage of these daylilies dies back nearly to the ground in very cold climates. Some green will be seen near the base. Generally, semi-evergreens wait until spring to resume growth.
Dormant (dor.)
These daylilies lose their foliage completely before or shortly after frost and over winter with pointed foliage buds, usually just beneath the soil surface. Dormants will resume
growth in spring.
From the Daylily Dictionary
EVERGREEN:
The foliage habit of daylilies that retain their foliage throughout the year. In cold winter climates, evergreen daylilies over-winter as a mound of frozen pale green foliage. Evergreens may resume growth during a mid-winter thaw in mild climates. Evergreen daylilies do not set resting buds.
SEMI-EVERGREEN:
Intermediate foliage behavior that is not adequately described as simply DECIDUOUS or EVERGREEN.
DECIDUOUS:
The term deciduous refers to daylilies that lose their foliage completely before or shortly after frost and over-winter with pointed foliage buds, usually just beneath the soil surface. Deciduous plants will resume growth in spring. Also see Dormant.
From the Frequently Asked Questions section ...which has what I think are the best explanations of deciduous and evergreen.
Habit
The winter behavior of the daylily foliage is called "the foliage habit." For registration purposes, the foliage habit is loosely categorized as deciduous, evergreen, and semi-evergreen.
Deciduous. The leaves of these daylilies die completely back as winter approaches. They stop growing and form resting buds at the crown, and the foliage dies down naturally and gradually. In the spring, the resting buds have a distinctive spear-like appearance as they emerge.
Evergreen. These daylilies retain their leaves throughout the year. They do not form resting buds. Instead, they continually produce new leaves unless cold weather prevents growth. In mild climates, the leaves of evergreens remain green all winter. In the coldest climates, the foliage of evergreens nearly always is frozen back, but the crown survives if it is hardy (or well mulched).
Semi-Evergreen. The term semi-evergreen is used to describe any foliage behavior which is not readily classed as simple evergreen or deciduous. Originally, the term semi-evergreen (or conversely, semi-deciduous) was used to describe those daylilies which retained many of its leaves and appeared somewhat evergreen when grown in the South, but lost all its leaves when grown in the North.
JWWC said:
This is why I would like to see a move away from the foliage as indication of hardiness, and I actually think this could help because hybridizers who still describe things as hard dormant, and deciduous, will be able to convey more specific information.
JWWC said:For many yes, but there are some who grow and test in multiple locations. I would like to know whether something that, for example, Jamie Gossard is labeling as an EV is an EV in OH vs in FL.
Char said:
I agree, I hope I didn't give the impression I was against the change to deciduous, quite the opposite. The more information we can gather to understand a plants growth habit from the hybridizer the better. Hopefully hybridizers will think about including more information in their descriptions, myself included.
Davi said:Well, continuing the conversation, James, I do not mind your digression into what you are studying as I'm a dumb Dora when it comes to science but I do find these things interesting. I was reading about the new light sensitive drug that uses lasers and bacteria found on the ocean floor that can't tolerate light that is now being used to treat prostate cancers without surgery. And proposals to use daylilies as a model for cancer treatment are out there as well. Fascinating stuff. So little is understood about daylilies....the differences on the cellular level between evergreen and dormant (er deciduous) crowns, why the bloom can't last more than a day even though hybridizers work hard on it, etc. So I rely on people with bigger brains than mine to tell me using little words instead of big words and talking sloooooowly!!
Char, I agree that consistency is really important and it seems that coordination is always lacking on official AHS sites. A lot has been done recently to update the technology aspect of the database as it relates to registration and during this process, it is getting frustrating for users. I liked one of Salters new intros and wanted to see if it had been registered, but the database has not up uploaded since October 2016 and its VERY slow in uploading. It will, no doubt, be done.....but when?