Plant ID forum: calling all Hickory detectives

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Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
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flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 5:51 PM CST
I think this is either Carya glabra (pignut hickory)
http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...
OR
Juglandaceae carya (Mockernut hickory)
http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

But I could be wrong & it might be neither. I'm dizzied by checking multiple sites & can't seem to nail it down. One minute I'm sure it's this one; the next I'm sure it's that one.




I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
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valleylynn
Nov 19, 2011 7:40 PM CST
Great photos Ann. Thumbs up
I was looking at both of your links. I can't decide which it would be.
Where is Lake City?
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 7:45 PM CST
North Central Florida. 65 miles west of Jacksonville, 45 miles north of Gainesville, 35 miles south of the Georgia state line.


I've been trying to nail down this ID for a week now off & on & it's making me nuts. Every time I think I'm positive it's one then I go back & look & think that can't be it. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



[Last edited by flaflwrgrl - Nov 19, 2011 7:47 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #179638 (3)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
Image
valleylynn
Nov 19, 2011 8:00 PM CST
DH thinks it is the Juglandaceae carya (Mockernut hickory), but I think we need more research. Another great place to ask is your local extension agency.
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 8:08 PM CST
But then look at this:

http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/mockernut_hickory....

When I look at that it doesn't match. It seems completely different. Vexed.
Extension agent is a good idea. Won't be able to get anyone for a while with Thanksgiving week upon us.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 8:11 PM CST
And then there's this:

http://sfrc.ufl.edu/4h/MockernutHickory/MockernutHickory.htm
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 8:19 PM CST
And this:

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/pages/compare-hickor...
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Nov 19, 2011 8:30 PM CST
Could be Sand Hickory, Carya pallida (family - Juglandaceae) Check the map at the bottom where it says "See states reporting sand hickory."

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Check under the leaves for silvery scales, and the leaf buds should have gold coloured glands..

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/capa.html

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+pallida



Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 8:39 PM CST
I didn't note any silvery scales on the undersides of the leaves but I will check & get more photos & try to get more close up of buds etc...

The sites you linked help a lot Janet. More detailed info. & better photos. Thanks.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level Sempervivums
Image
valleylynn
Nov 19, 2011 8:40 PM CST
Hurray! Yeah, there's Janet. Hurray!
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 19, 2011 8:41 PM CST
I agree Hurray! Hurray! Hurray! Thumbs up Big Grin
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 9:16 AM CST
Lol, what do you agree with Ann? Rolling on the floor laughing

I thought the fruit, nut or seed Rolling my eyes. looked more like it than any but the photo of the leaf back you posted doesn't show the silvery scales, a closer view might show these or not. Until we know if it has these scales and the golden glands it's a stall job.

It seems to be important also to know how many leaflets there are, from what I can see there looks to be only five so that would mean looking at others as the Sand Hickory has 9 or as on the discoverlife site it shows 7.
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Nov 20, 2011 9:23 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #179839 (12)
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 20, 2011 9:40 AM CST
I agree with the " Hurray! Janet's here!"

I agree it's stall job until I can go back & examine more closely; however, I do not think it's the Sand Hickory. I have a magnification feature in my photo program & the undersides of the leaves have some scales but not to the extent that I've seen on the Sand in all the sites I've been on. I did observe while I was there that this tree as far up as I can see well enough has ONLY 5 leaflets everywhere I looked. Also on my magnifying glass the buds do not show the golden glands. BUT my magnifying glass has it's limitations & the more you magnify you can tend to lose fine detail.

I've been worrying the situation this morning all over the internet & have pretty much decided I think it's Mockernut - Carya Alba - but every photo I find has 7 leaflets. However many sites say it can have 5 which would fit.

There are a few more Hickory on the property & I'm willing to bet they are the same variety. So, I will examine very closely the tree I took photos of as well as the others & take photos of them too. I am happy that I'm learning (thank you Janet for pointing me in directions) better what to look for & make note of for ID purposes. This is great!

Will report back when I have more info. to impart.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 10:04 AM CST
Let's systematically go through those in Florida..

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=CARYA

Carya alba has 7-9 leaflets, probably not this.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya aquatica has 7-15 leaves, it's out.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya cordiformis has 7-11 leaflets, out.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya floridana has 3-7 leaflets, it's possible..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carya_floridana

Not sure about the deeply contrasting veins though..

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+000...

http://irrecenvhort.ifas.ufl.edu/SFFE/savannas/caryafloridan...

Carya glabra has 5-7 leaflets, looking good!

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya illinoinensis has 9-15 leaflets, out.

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya ovalis has 5 or 9 leaflets, most often 7.. possible!

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm...

Carya pallida has 5-9 leaflets, commonly 7, possible!

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

on the above link it states: "upper leaf surfaces covered with silvery scales when young, lower surface very pale and pubescent" which contradicts what it said on the link I gave earlier.. "Leaf undersides are paler, covered with silvery scales"

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/capa.html

To cap that off, the most likely going on the numer of leaflets are:

Carya glabra
Carya ovalis

Carya pallida depending on silver scales on top of young leaves, or bottom, depending which is correct!

Carya floridana leaflets really don't look right but further research might be needed.

That narrows it to the two unless proven otherwise, with Carya glabra being a strong contender due to it having 5-7 leaflets.


Carya glabra
Carya ovalis

The photos on discoverlife show some leaflets on Carya glabra as being opposite, some not quite opposite.

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+glabra

Carya ovalis..

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+ovalis

Adding Carya Alba if it can have 5 leaves, more research needed!









[Last edited by JRsbugs - Nov 20, 2011 10:09 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #179852 (14)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 10:17 AM CST
I found a discussion on Pignut Hickory versus Red Hickory, which are the two I narrowed down to be most likely, Carya glabra and Carya ovalis

http://www.nativetreesociety.org/species/sp_threads/pignut_h...

A conversation about the impossibility of separating the two (link on the above site)

http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees/browse_thread/threa...

A convenient list with common names..

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 10:19 AM CST
A site showing all the fruits, with a link to a key to Hickory if they can be separated! Rolling my eyes.

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/pages/carya-fruits.h...
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 10:27 AM CST
What I have gleaned from looking at the fruits, is that C. glabra is broad at one end and narrower at the other.

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/cagl8.htm

C. ovalis fruits are rounded at both ends..

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/caov3.htm
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Nov 20, 2011 10:28 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #179865 (17)
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 20, 2011 12:04 PM CST
I haven't had a chance to check out any of that yet --- all the links. But I did want to get this on the thread. I took a nut off the tree yesterday & just now got around to taking photos of it & loading them. The nut was green/brown yesterday & already it has browned a good deal. I took from all sides & angles. Each joint of my fingers measures out just about 1 inch.







I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Nov 20, 2011 2:04 PM CST
Carya floridana isn't so well represented, but the leaf margins are well toothed..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carya_floridana

http://www.floridasnature.com/florida%20trees2.htm

Carya alba nut shape doesn't look right.. nor do the leaves..

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+alba

http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=CAAL27

There's links to leaves etc on the following link, the leaves are more ovate..

http://www.ibiblio.org/openkey/intkey/web/CAAL27.htm

Carya ovalis looks close.. but it doesn't quite have the extended bump.

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/c/wcaov3-fr29803.jpg

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+ovalis

Carya glabra is a possibilty, the nut looks different from different angles but looks a little more tapered at one end. The pic on the link is a side-top view..

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/c/wcagl8-frside16372...

The nut shape looks different on this site..

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Carya glabra (pignut hickory): approximately 2.5 cm long and 2 cm wide, pear-shaped (narrows at the base); husk thin, dark brown, only slightly splitting into segments if at all; nuts broadest near the apex, narrowed at the base; thick shell; kernel insipid or bitter.


We can rule out C. pallida..

Carya palida (sand hickory): small, 13 to 37 mm long, somewhat rounded, slightly longer than broad, covered with short hairs and yellow scales; husk thin, 3 to 4 mm thick and splitting tardily to the base by 2 or 3 sutures; nut laterally flattened, ridged, light-colored; shell very thin, 2 to 3 mm thick; kernel sweet.


Carya ovalis (red hickory): 2.5 to 3 cm long and about 2 cm wide; husk thin, about 2 to 2.5 mm thick, splitting freely to the base; nut with ridges extending from 1/3 to 1/2 its length; shell thin; kernel small and sweet.


This photo seems to show "nut with ridges extending from 1/3 to 1/2 its length"

http://garden.org/pics/2011-11-20/flaflwrgrl/e5565c.jpg

My gut feeling was leaning towards Carya ovalis RED HICKORY, the leaves and fruit seem to match better than any.

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Carya+ovalis

http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus2/factsheet.cfm...

http://www.cas.vanderbilt.edu/bioimages/species/caov3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carya_ovalis

If the nut fits, I think that cinches it. Hilarious!
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Nov 20, 2011 2:10 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #179990 (19)
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
Nov 20, 2011 6:04 PM CST
Janet, I'm going to start calling you Super Sleuth!
I'm content it's Red Hickory also. I had kept going to that several times myself. Got a real kick out of the conversation about separating the Pignut from the Red. LOL! At least it made me not feel so bad myself. Big Grin
It would be a lot easier if the different references didn't contradict each other. Even for the Red Hickory I saw on 1 site where it said the shell was thin & another which called the shell thick. Blinking And 1 where it said the Red Hickory was "uncommon but not uncommon at all". Say whaaaaat?????? It got so I couldn't see the Hickory for the nuts! Rolling on the floor laughing
I will check it again when we go out next & check the other Hickory's as well. I want to take some more photos for the database anyway so maybe it will be easier for people searching the database to determine which hickory they have.
We'll call this one solved.
Thanks Super Sleuth!
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



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