Ok, then I think I have this clear in my mind (at least till the next question arises). But it appears to me if a "Fan" is the term to be used here then even though not scientific in a sense, then a fan would be able to produce more than one scape, because the crown is considered to be part of the fan.

@seedfork
If we include the crown in the definition of a fan then we have a potential problem. What happens when one scape is produced by the fan and then it divides into two sets of leaves with two growing points in the same growing season? Is that now two fans or still one fan? If only one of those sets of leaves produces a scape in that same growing season is that rebloom?

From the AHS Daylily Dictionary:

"Terms FAN, DIVISION, and RAMET are interchangeable. Each refers to an individual unit of a clump, containing leaves, crown, and roots. Within a clump, each fan is genetically identical to the parent. Also see: Division, Ramet."

"Rebloom" from the registration instructions:
"Some daylily cultivars have more than one cycle of bloom during a single season. These are known as reblooming or recurrent daylilies. Some of these bloom early, have a rest period, and then rebloom. Others have a succession of bloom periods, one after another for several months. Cultivars which repeat in one location may not do so in another, as repeat bloom is often influenced by climate and weather conditions. Check the "yes" box only if your daylily reblooms in your garden."

sooby said:From the AHS Daylily Dictionary:

"Terms FAN, DIVISION, and RAMET are interchangeable. Each refers to an individual unit of a clump, containing leaves, crown, and roots. Within a clump, each fan is genetically identical to the parent. Also see: Division, Ramet."

"Rebloom" from the registration instructions:
"Some daylily cultivars have more than one cycle of bloom during a single season. These are known as reblooming or recurrent daylilies. Some of these bloom early, have a rest period, and then rebloom. Others have a succession of bloom periods, one after another for several months. Cultivars which repeat in one location may not do so in another, as repeat bloom is often influenced by climate and weather conditions. Check the "yes" box only if your daylily reblooms in your garden."

The AHS registration instructions do not mention fans at all with regards to rebloom. It only mentions cultivars - not fans - with recurring bloom periods ranging from short periods to longer ones. I would assume a single season would be the period following winter dormancy. So anytime a cultivar exhibits follow up bloom beyond the initial bloom, it would be considered rebloom.

At least that's my take away from this very interesting and informative thread.

Well, the title of this thread is "Can a Fan Produce Multiple Scapes?" So I think the answer to that question based on what we now have as a definition of a "fan" has to be yes.

What is and is not considered rebloom I think is a discussion for another thread, and to me it doesn't seem too complicated..until we start discussing it. As you said "Generally, isn't "rebloom" simply when a plant produces one or more distinct separate periods of flowering?

Sorry, cross posted again!

@seedfork

Although I understand your desire to be able to state that one fan can produce multiple scapes, that does not change the biology that one fan of leaves is produced by one growing point that at some point becomes the scape and then is no longer available to produce any further leaves or scapes. That is, one growing point produces one set of leaves (fan) and only one scape.

I've been working this out in my mind overnight and again this morning while stripping the garden, showers off and on so figured I'd pull all blooms old and new to start fresh tomorrow. Only half done. Anyhow, came in and read your excellent explanation Maurice. I was having better luck getting away from so much use of the term "fan" and instead picturing the crown area of 1 fan being able to produce the main SAM then if conditions were good extra or replacement SAM's that would also have time within the season to bloom creating what we consider to be rebloom. Your diagram showed that perfectly.

admmad said:@seedfork
If we include the crown in the definition of a fan then we have a potential problem. What happens when one scape is produced by the fan and then it divides into two sets of leaves with two growing points in the same growing season? Is that now two fans or still one fan? If only one of those sets of leaves produces a scape in that same growing season is that rebloom?

Then I read further down and saw your questions regarding crown. Maybe part of the problem is the way we use the term fan as gardeners as opposed to the scientific usage. When we look at a fan it appears as one unit (division) of the plant, we purchase 1 or 2 fan plants and when you plant a 1 fan plant it is one fan. If that fan were to grow a scape then 2 new leaves and put up another scape it would still appear to be one fan with 2 scapes. Whereas you are saying it is actually 2 fans, each with 1 scape. So I think what you are saying is a fan can only have one SAM. Every time there is a new SAM it is a new fan on the original roots and crown, but not always a new division (gardener version of fan). The addition of "same" in the explanation of rebloom would be incorrect because it is not the same fan sending up a new scape. Rebloom would be, quoting from Larry, "when a plant produces one or more distinct separate periods of flowering" and adding "within a single bloom season".

admmad said:
A cultivar that has the ability for a single SAM to produce more than one scape would likely be a new mutation. It would be important as the SAM would survive flowering and scapes would be produced directly and routinely always from axillary buds. The axillary buds would not produce any leaves before producing the scape.

Adding another twist, found these two fans today on the same plant, each with two scapes and no leaves between. One scape on one of the fans had FFO today, none of the other 3 scapes have bloomed yet. Not thinking I have some new mutation but they do appear to fit what you described.

Char said:
Adding another twist, found these two fans today on the same plant, each with two scapes and no leaves between. One scape on one of the fans had FFO today, none of the other 3 scapes have bloomed yet. Not thinking I have some new mutation but they do appear to fit what you described

Now that is interesting. Who knows, it might be a new mutation. Is the plant a registered cultivar? If it is, and that behaviour was consistent I would expect that it would have been noticed and emphasized. If it is a seedling then it might be very interesting.

It is possible that there were leaves in between the two scapes originally but that they were small (like the original leaves that appear when dormant fans first start growth in the spring). Those leaves tend to have a short lifespan and to senesce relatively soon after appearing. Or it is possible that something in the growing conditions has caused the axillary buds to immediately become reproductive without being vegetative or producing any leaves. I would expect that to be something that theoretically/speculatively might be possible in continuous growth but not in discontinuous growth.

I agree that as we commonly use the term fan (to mean the set of leaves that looks like a fan), it can often appear as if one fan has produced multiple scapes.

@admmad
"If we include the crown in the definition of a fan then we have a potential problem."
That is what I see as the problem, the term crown is included in the AHS definition of "Fan". All I am saying is using that definition then a fan can produce multiple scapes.
I do agree that a growing point will only produce one scape.

yeah...cross posted again, sorry!

The plant is a seedling and I've marked it as reblooming once before but never noticed if this is the way it always presented the scapes. I would have never noticed it if I hadn't dropped that one FFO bloom and bent down to pick it up. Even then without the current discussion it would have just been marked as rebloom again. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to us.

I've had a group of seedlings that seem to grow two scapes every Spring, one is the earliest red I have ever seen, blooming with H minor and other early species.. I think I asked Admmad about these about nine years ago but that was on another forum. Unfortunately my photo skills have not much improved, probably age. At the time I was over seventy and we bought our first computer, now on our third computer and I think I,m not much improved. I remember taking all afternoon to post a photo and thinking I wish I,d never heard of photobucket. Not doing a lot of gardening-when I get down on the ground I almost can,t get up! Fun. But I will try to post a picture of the two scapes, all of the siblings seem to do this, yellows, an eye, and the red. Originally a Spring species hybrid, (NOID) rebloomed in August and I crossed it with August Orange-they bloomed about 2002. All seem to pop up a new scape from the center of the fan before the first one blooms then they bloom together which is good because it increases the amount and length of bloom.--Weedy