@Cpschult
My initial research training was in genetics but if I had to choose a description I would say my background was in evolutionary biology.
There are a number of articles that describe some aspect of daylily inheritance. They tend to be over-simplifications for daylilies. There is no published research in the scientific literature on the genetics of characteristics in daylilies that would be helpful. I have started looking into crested, double and polymerous daylilies but it will be many years before I have enough observations to do more than speculate.

admmad said:@Cpschult
My initial research training was in genetics but if I had to choose a description I would say my background was in evolutionary biology.
............................................................................................................ I have started looking into crested, double and polymerous daylilies but it will be many years before I have enough observations to do more than speculate.

Speculation derived from an informed background has a lot of merit.

needrain said:

Speculation derived from an informed background has a lot of merit.

From a scientific perspective, research is much more informative. I don't discount his informed background but like admmad mentioned it takes a lot data sets to make inference about what results you see. Even though this is the first time I'll be starting with bearded genetics I'm setting up my spreadsheets in a way I can track actual expression of beards/cristation to see if I can track how recessive the expression actually is/any sort of pattern in expression. From the google research I've done regarding the bearding/sculpted cristation it seems only Brad Best has truly begun to explore them. His "Believe" daylily has an absolute monster beard. If I ever win the lottery I'll definitely buy one ;)

@admmad I'd love for you to publish some research after you get to play with the genetics for a few more years!!

Michael's sword was developed via BEE's BETTIE SUE' x 'LAVENDER BLUE BABY. Brad Best mentioned Ruffled Perfection and likely Barbra Mitchell have genetics that can produce beards/sculpted cristate. Joan Senior (one of Bee's Betty Sue's parents) also likely has similar genetics. Parents of Emperor's Crocodile are (Pixie Pinwheel Party) x (Emerald Starburst).

I added this to my first post but in case anyone is looking for more information about beginning genetics without having to do the hunting I did =D

So the I've found the daylily community fantastic! I've had a few discussions about bearded hybridizing with some great folks. One hybridizer I talked to gave me these 6 tips. What I thought was incredible was the three different styles that he's seeing develop in his breeding program. I also really appreciate his insight. I wanted to share with anyone who has interest in bearded/sculpted cristate flowers.

1) You'll get more cristate seedlings crossing 2 cristates...BUT...you'll also have more fertility problems , especially if you line breed.

2) Outcrosses are problematic too. Sometimes you lose ALL of the cristation, other times you see partial expression. Still, it's worth keeping and using the best of those partial cristates and maybe even the non-cristates if they are really great plants because they are carriers of the trait, though recessively.

3) Some might disagree but I see cristates segregating out into 3 styles in my program...A) cristate hairy/bearded, B) cristate feathered/plumed...C) cristate rayed/threaded. There are some blooms that blur the lines between these 3 styles but still, that's what I see. I'll attach photos.

4) Cristate hairy/bearded results from only crossing cristate x cristate for me. Cristate feathered/plumed can result from either cristate x cristate or cristate x non-cristate. Cristate rayed/threaded is only from outcrosses for me.

5) Read a lot, look at a lot of blooms, study pedigrees...then follow your heart.

6) plain old cristate is gonna get old quickly...start combining traits as soon as possible. Patterns, stripes, color changing, teeth...all are possible avenues to explore immediately with cristates to make your own program unique.

admmad said:'Wyatt's Eyes' was registered with the seedling number LBB F2 04. My interpretation of that seedling number is that LBB stands for 'Lavender Blue Baby' and the cross that produced 'Wyatt's Eyes' was an F2 cross.
So 'Wyatt's Eyes' would be ('Lavender Blue Baby' x daylily Z) X ('Lavender Blue Baby' x daylily Z). Quite possibly a self-pollination of ('Lavender Blue Baby' x daylily Z).
'Wyatt's Eyes' looks very much like 'Lavender Blue Baby' except for the cresting.

I sent an e-mail to the hybridizer of Wyatt's Eyes asking if he could share any information about the cross. He didn't mind sharing and we've had a good discussion regarding hybridizing. He did mention that the Wyatt's Eyes cross is essentially this!
@admmad

@Cpschult

I love your enthusiasm and your willingness to share information!! I've a feeling you'll work it all out and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see something fabulous introduced by you in the future! Never lose your sense of wonder and your generous spirit!!

I've not seen any seedlings from Texas Feathered Fancy but I've planted my own crosses from it and hope to get something worth keeping and using.

Goober

SheilaC said:@Cpschult

I love your enthusiasm and your willingness to share information!! I've a feeling you'll work it all out and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see something fabulous introduced by you in the future! Never lose your sense of wonder and your generous spirit!!

I've not seen any seedlings from Texas Feathered Fancy but I've planted my own crosses from it and hope to get something worth keeping and using.

Goober

Thanks! The community has been really great dealing with my questions. It seems there are a decent amount of hybridizers that are working with bearded genetics so I'm excited to see new bearded flowers as they are released. I've a few sneak peaks and things are pretty exciting ;)

The majority of the seeds I purchased are germinating. The worst is my lady patch/flash forward, I think I'm 1 for 15 on those seeds.

Are you Goober on daylily auction? If you are thank you for offering Lady Patch at an affordable price. I really look forward to playing with more bearded genetics!!

Brad Best has asked me to clarify that the "bearded" genetics are different than the "scultped cristate".

I've edited a few things in my original post where I noted bearded/sculpted cristate in the same sentence. I've also removed ruffled perfection as a potential bearded prognosticator per his request.

There is a rather large difference in opinion on the verbiage used with bearded daylilies. I don't really care either way I just wanted a central hub with information for people who were interested in the look like I was. I haven't been on the website in months.

On here sculpted cristate will get you more information than bearded will. Online bearded will lead you to Brad's crosses.

Thanks,
Chris

As I think was said before, the AHS does not recognize the term "bearded" for daylilies because it has a specific meaning in botany that does not match what Mr. Best calls "bearded" in daylilies, hence they are currently called cristate in AHS. The term "bearded" was specifically rejected for these daylilies by the AHS. What is the actual evidence that the genetics are different?

Also cristate includes different types, not just one:
https://www.daylilies.org/ahs_...

Cpschult said:Brad Best has asked me to clarify that the "bearded" genetics are different than the "scultped cristate".

Yes, No and Maybe.

No one has done all the necessary formal crosses (F1, F2, F3, both backcrosses, etc.), produced sufficient seedlings and analyzed the characteristics in enough detail (dissections, microscopic slides, etc.) to make reliable statements about the genetics of these characteristics.

The genetics of these characteristics involve two factors that make them difficult to analyze and significantly more complex than any simple Mendelian genetics. Those are variable expressivity and incomplete penetrance. Variable expressivity means that individuals that are genetically identical in terms of the apparent major mutation that causes the effect may show quite different aspects of the characteristics associated with the mutation. They may not look alike even though they should if we simply classify them as to the major gene. Incomplete penetrance means that individuals that genetically should show the characteristic may never do so.
When these two factors are in play it usually means that the environment plays a large role in determining how and whether the characteristic associated with the mutation is shown. However, it may also mean that although there is a major genetic effect there are also potentially several other minor genetic effects that modify the outcome of the major one. Those other genetic effects, often labelled as "modifiers" or modifier genes may differ between individuals and cause the different aspects of the major mutation to appear or not appear.

Whether the genetics of the characteristics that effect the areas associated with the central tissues of the petals and sepals in daylilies are completely different or whether they might have major genes in common and different modifier genes or whether there is a general mixture of genetic effects is currently scientifically unknown.

I will guess that the genetic effects act on tissues associated with the ability of stamens and pistils to be derived from meristematic (not quite normal meristems) tissues that also produce sepals and petals. Those meristematic tissues are located near the centre of the developing flower organs (pistil, stamen, petal, sepal).

Cpschult said:There is a rather large difference in opinion on the verbiage used with bearded daylilies. I don't really care either way I just wanted a central hub with information for people who were interested in the look like I was. I haven't been on the website in months.

I'm glad you have found the NGA website and consider it a "central hub" for information on Sculpted cristate forms. Another website you will find useful is the newly redone American Daylily Society (American Hemerocallis Society) website.
https://daylilies.org/
There is a lot of information on the pages all relating to daylilies including the official definitions for Sculpted forms, pleated, relief and cristate.

Cpschult said:On here sculpted cristate will get you more information than bearded will. Online bearded will lead you to Brad's crosses.

The reason you can find more information on NGA about Sculpted cristate forms is because we use the correct and accepted terminology.

Cpschult said:Brad Best has asked me to clarify that the "bearded" genetics are different than the "scultped cristate".

I've heard so many stories and ways of trying to justify the use of bearded to folks new to daylilies over the past 13 years. Sculpted cristate is a Form based on the shape and structure of the flower. Form has nothing to do with genetics. For instance crispate and spatulate are two different types of Unusual form with different shape and structure, there is not one "genetic" line. I would also reread Maurice's post above.

In your list of cristates in the first post of this thread you missed parentage for some of the Tets you had listed and also left off a diploid.

Sculpted in Vermont is a diploid Sculpted cristate form.
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Sculpted in Vermont')

On the Tet side...
Sigourney - Don't Touch Me There X Anatomy of Change
Love Never Ends - Outrageous Fortune X sdlg
Strikingly Dramattic - (Off Beat x Catcher in the Eye) x Gerda Brooker
Snarky - Straight Shooter x Fringing Coral Reef
Mr Tumnus - unknown unknown
Bonibrae Inner Demons - Bonibrae Jack Laundry x Forestlake Ragamuffin
Ohio Discovery - Unending Melody X Tet. Barbara Barnette

The interesting ones that relate to Tet. Barbara Mitchell are...
Tiki God - (Breed Apart x Momentum) X Be Thine
Kendra Marie - Women Seeking Men X Shores of Time
Unexpected Joy - Pink Debutante X Tet. Siloam Double Classic
Southport - Senegal x One Step Beyond

Witchy Woman - which also has Tet. Lavender Blue Baby through Heartbeat of Heaven - Heartbeat of Heaven X Bill Robinson
Now if you look at a new introduction Starched Petticoats it is also Heartbeat of Heaven X Mountain Radiation which goes to Tet. Barbara Mitchell. You need the link to Tom Keast's website to see this one
http://keastdaylilygardens.com...

As you can see there are other parentage combinations that produce cristation in daylilies as well as other shapes and placement for the cristation... even within the Lavender Blue Baby and Barbara Mitchell line.

Chris, I hope you continue to do your own research into the Sculpted cristate form and see your own sdlgs blooming some day. I think it is safe to say that the genes in certain cultivars/seedlings do play a role in producing cristation, but there are no genes that will produce a beard in daylilies.There is a lot to see and learn besides the self promoting line of Mr. Best.

Thank you Char!!!

Here is a picture to clearly show what "bearded" means in botany:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.or...

Firefox on my iPad wouldn't let me copy the image so that I could post the actual picture but at least this way you can see the creative commons blurb that is supposed to go with it

Note the plant's Latin name includes reference to the beard, Penstemon barbatus, since barbatus/barbate means beard, which in botany refers to having hairs.

Adding also to what Char said above, flower form divisions determined by AHS as the approved international cultivar registration authority are based on visual appearance, not their genetic background. I think there's some misconception "out there" that there has to be some kind of scientific basis for grouping flower forms for registration and exhibition purposes but there does not.

For a cultivar's registration (or patent) description to be universally understood and not cause confusion, it is necessary to avoid using long established and well-understood botanical terms for something clearly unrelated.

I don't take offense to Brad's request. I had made it look like he referenced "sculpted cristate" in my conversation with him, which he didn't. I had added that for clarification purposes for anyone reading my post. It wasn't my intention to put words in his mouth.

Wow that starched petticoat has looks great!

I plan to continue hybrizing and plant my seedlings. In two years I should have some bearded seedlings. In the mean time my michaels sword, tff, lady patch, Wyatt's eyes (most excited to see if it survives in the north), bbb, and you can dance will hopefully thrive in my garden!

Thank you Sue!

The Keast introduction, STARCHED PETTICOATS, is a significant step forward in hybridizing for Tet cristates IMHO. It is the only one (that I know of) that has dormant plant habit from a northern hybridizing program. While my two Tet cristates (LITTLE BIG EARS and AFTER THE RIOT) are both being grown in zone 5, they are evergreens. So I jumped at the chance to add a dormant to the mix. It also represents a new color as most Tet cristates to date have been stuck in the same color range of gold/melon/polychrome. I intend to cross STARCHED PETTICOATS with AFTER THE RIOT....pictured below. It is a cross of LITTLE BIG EARS X SIGOURNEY.

Davi said:The Keast introduction, STARCHED PETTICOATS, is a significant step forward in hybridizing for Tet cristates IMHO. It is the only one (that I know of) that has dormant plant habit from a northern hybridizing program.... It also represents a new color as most Tet cristates to date have been stuck in the same color range of gold/melon/polychrome.

This is another instance where the NGA database will help you research Sculpted cristate forms. When you go to the daylily database at the top you will see a box for Search and Browse Dayliles. In the box is a Search By Characteristics link, click it. There you will be able to select the characteristics you are looking for. Be sure to hit the Search button after making your selections. Currently there are 17 dormant, Tet, Sculpted cristate cultivars in a variety of colors and 44 semi-evergreen also in a variety of colors that come up in a search of the database. Many of these are from northern hybridizers and/or are hardy in zone 4.
The Daylilies Database

If you are unsure about where a hybridizer might be located Charlotte's Hybridizer's Corner is a great place to find hybridizer websites.
http://daylilydiary.com/garden...

Not exactly state of the art compared to the development on the diploid level, is it? I can see why the Best intros are getting so much attention!

That was a bit rude to the many hybridizers of northern hardy Tet cristate cultivars.... just trying to help you and others who may be reading this thread search for dormant and/or hardy cristate forms.

Yes, I agree Tet cristates need work, so do lots of things, but the dormancy, northern hardiness from northern hybridizers and color other than gold/melon/polychrome is there to start with... which are things you said you weren't aware of. Starched Petticoats will be a great addition to work in with all the other previously registered cristate cultivars and sdlgs. Another thing to keep in mind is that hybridizing in the north is a longer process than the south and northern hybridizers are working their sdlgs 4, 5 or more years ahead of what you might currently see registered. There are many good things to come!
Sadly much of the attention to the Best intro's is due to the nasty attitude & bullying being inserted into any conversation about cristate forms and the constant barrage of misinformation posted to the internet over the past 10 years.The dips are not without problems. Almost all the Best intro's are pollen sterile. Plant habit of the Best plants need work as well, the ones I have are small weak growers even though he claims they have been through tough northern conditions and they are not recommended for growing in the south. Southern cristate dips can be tender in the north and some of these also have the sterile pollen issues. Although there are other hybridizers besides Mr. Best making great progress with the dips, Mike Derrows program is very impressive... dips need work too.
The cristate forms are starting to gain interest now that they are an accepted Form of daylily. Hybridizing Sculpted cristate forms really is not much different then hybridizing any other form of daylily...we are all trying to improve the form with the plants we currently have available.