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Jan 28, 2018 7:47 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
This plant is not E. grandiflorum, it is named form of E. x versicolor (a hybrid of grandiflorum x pinnatum ssp. colchicum).
There are several named cultivars, 'Sulphureum' and 'Neosulphureum', while similar, are two separate cultivars. The plant shown here is 'Sulphureum', it has bright yellow cup and spurs almost as long as the sepals. On the other hand 'Neosulphureum' has a lighter yellow cup, and spurs that about 1/2 the length of the sepals. There are other differences. See the following link:
http://www.epimediums.com/e-x-...
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Jan 28, 2018 7:56 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Epimedium x versicolor is no longer a valid species name. It's now a synonym for E. grandiflorum.
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Jan 28, 2018 8:20 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Here's the CoL page showing that E. versicolor is a synonym:

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

There is another possible explanation: Epimedium versicolor is not described as a hybrid taxon in the Catalogue of Life. Is it possible that there was an Epimedium versicolor and an Epimedium x versicolor? If so, the species is a synonym and the hybrid is not. The hybrid taxon, however, is not listed in any taxonomic database, which could mean that it's a man-made hybrid. Our database and the main taxonomic databases do not list hybrid taxa unless they are spontaneous hybrids that occur in the wild.

If the second explanation is correct, the man-made hybrid is not a valid species name and will not be listed in our database. In this case, the entry will have to be edited to leave only the genus and the cultivar name. Epimedium x versicolor can be added as an also-sold-as name.
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Jan 31, 2018 11:23 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Thanks for the links and taking the time to research this. The trouble is with these world checklists of plants, whether it be CoL, IPNI, The Plant List, Tropicos at Missouri Bot Garden, Kew, Royal Botanic Garden, none are in full agreement and consensus, and there are often lots of mistakes in them.

Example: CoL does not recognize Epimedium × omeiense Stearn 1995 (natural hybrids between E. acuminatum x fangii), so cultivars of this botanical entity will be missing from CoL.
CoL does recognize Epimedium sasaki Maekawa 1955 (as if a species!), however it was published as a name for natural hybrids occurring in Japan, as E. x sasaki Maekawa 1955, so perhaps CoL did not interpret this one correctly.

For Epimedium, I reference the Father of Epimedium and Berberidaceae, William T. Stearn and his monograph The Genus Epimedium and Other Herbaceous Berberidaceae, 2002. I also depend on the work by Darrell Probst who spent decades on Epimedium taxonomy and botanical exploration in China, Korea, and Japan; he also collaborated with W.T.Stearn.

The name E. versicolor was published in 1854.
The name E. x versicolor was published in 1849 (mentioned in the Epimedium book). In the early days of taxonomy (1800s), yes indeed some groups of hybrids were given latinized names to describe the crosses, whether they were man-made or natural.

So, how best to interpret? If the NGA prefers to strictly adhere to a singular reference, so be it. For me personally, I'm following the taxonomy as developed by those who worked decades in the field, and always try to find consensus among the most reputable taxonomic authority for specific genera, there are none that authorizes on all genera.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Jan 31, 2018 11:27 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
I should have added. I did make a comment that the photo closeup showing the flowers is 'Sulphureum', not 'Neosulphureum'. Among the differences, 'Sulphureum' has bright yellow cup, with spurs almost as long as the sepals, whereas in 'Neosulphureum' has light yellow cup and short spurs half as long as sepals. There are other differences, but those two features make it easy to separate the two. I grow both, obtained from reliable sources.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Jan 31, 2018 1:14 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I'll start by addressing the simplest matter. You say that the CoL does not recognize E. omeiense. It does recognize it as an accepted hybrid taxon and we have had an entry for Epimedium x omeiense since the first day of our database (9/16/2011). http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Epimedium x omeiense

It also recognizes E. sasakii as a hybrid taxon. Our own entry did not have the required "x," so I have edited it to add the "x." http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Epimedium x sasakii

Now, on to the more complicated matters. We use the Catalogue of Life because it is the most comprehensive and most current (updated just yesterday, actually, and listing November 2017 as the latest taxonomic scrutiny of the epimedium entries) taxonomic source available to us.

It still does not list E. versicolor as an accepted hybrid taxon. It could do this in the future, especially now that Kew has become one of its main sources. I'm going to edit our cultivar entries for Sulphureum and Neosulphureum to remove the species name, but I will list it in the also-sold-as field. That way, it wil be easy to find the E. x versicolor cultivars when and if the CoL lists it as an accepted hybrid taxon.

I need your help with something else. We have two other cultivars listing E. versicolor as a synonym: Discolor and Cupreum. Fairy Wings (Epimedium 'Cupreum') Should I edit these in the same way?

I'll also move HemNorth's two photos to the 'Sulphureum' entry. Is Calif_Sue's 'Neosulphureum' photo in the right place? Bishops Hat (Epimedium 'Neosulphureum')
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Jan 31, 2018 7:04 PM CST
Name: Nora
Castlegar, B. C. Canada (Zone 5b)
Birds Region: United Kingdom Salvias Roses Organic Gardener Irises
Echinacea Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Canadian Garden Photography Butterflies
Thank you for the correction of my submission into the Epimedium Sulphureum category. Thanks for catching the difference, AntMan01, and thanks to you, zuzu for changing it to the right place.

In looking up Epimedium x perralchicum 'Frohnleiten', which was in the Robson garden, I discovered another error of placement. I'll show the correct version (oh it was so light and airy, and I think I lost it) and the error.

Thanks for your attention to this one also, @zuzu
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Jan 31, 2018 9:03 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Zuzu, thanks for your most thoughtful response and attention to detail, I will address this tomorrow (late here on the east coast USA), I'm going to skip ahead and address HemNorths post first. Smiling
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Jan 31, 2018 9:27 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
HemNorth said:Thank you for the correction of my submission into the Epimedium Sulphureum category. Thanks for catching the difference, AntMan01, and thanks to you, zuzu for changing it to the right place.

In looking up Epimedium x perralchicum 'Frohnleiten', which was in the Robson garden, I discovered another error of placement. I'll show the correct version (oh it was so light and airy, and I think I lost it) and the error.

Thanks for your attention to this one also, @zuzu


Regarding TreeHuggers photo of Epimedium x perralchicum 'Frohnleiten', it's impossible to tell if it is correct without seeing details of the foliage. The name Epimedium x perralchicum represents hybrids between perralderianum x pinnatum ssp. colchicum, these two species very similar, particularly in floral details. The selection 'Frohnleiten' is known for wavy-edged leaves and an intense bronze color overlay on green, with a strong pattern of green veins. Thus the photo cannot lead to a definite ID, but at least the flowers match that of pinnatum ssp. colchicum, perralderianum, or the hybrid of the two, x perralchicum.

AliKat's photo is Epimedium x versicolor 'Sulphureum'. The obvious cue, is big central "cups" disqualify it from being pinnatum ssp. colchicum, perralderianum, and x perralchicum.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Jan 31, 2018 9:58 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
AliKat's photo was posted two years ago. Amazingly, it was exactly two years ago (1/31/16)! She has never contributed a photo or post since that time, so I'll move her photo without waiting for any input from her.
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Feb 1, 2018 5:04 AM CST
Name: Nora
Castlegar, B. C. Canada (Zone 5b)
Birds Region: United Kingdom Salvias Roses Organic Gardener Irises
Echinacea Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Canadian Garden Photography Butterflies
Thanks for the house cleaning going on. Great action, you two.
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Feb 1, 2018 12:34 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
zuzu said:

1)
I'll start by addressing the simplest matter. You say that the CoL does not recognize E. omeiense. It does recognize it as an accepted hybrid taxon and we have had an entry for Epimedium x omeiense since the first day of our database (9/16/2011). http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Epimedium x omeiense

2)
It also recognizes E. sasakii as a hybrid taxon. Our own entry did not have the required "x," so I have edited it to add the "x." http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Epimedium x sasakii

3)
Now, on to the more complicated matters. We use the Catalogue of Life because it is the most comprehensive and most current (updated just yesterday, actually, and listing November 2017 as the latest taxonomic scrutiny of the epimedium entries) taxonomic source available to us.

4)
It still does not list E. versicolor as an accepted hybrid taxon. It could do this in the future, especially now that Kew has become one of its main sources. I'm going to edit our cultivar entries for Sulphureum and Neosulphureum to remove the species name, but I will list it in the also-sold-as field. That way, it wil be easy to find the E. x versicolor cultivars when and if the CoL lists it as an accepted hybrid taxon.

5)
I need your help with something else. We have two other cultivars listing E. versicolor as a synonym: Discolor and Cupreum. Fairy Wings (Epimedium 'Cupreum') Should I edit these in the same way?

6)
I'll also move HemNorth's two photos to the 'Sulphureum' entry. Is Calif_Sue's 'Neosulphureum' photo in the right place? Bishops Hat (Epimedium 'Neosulphureum')


Hi Zuzu, thanks again for your comprehensive response. To help track my response, I added numbers to the 6 main points.

1. Catalog of Life (CoL) and Epimedium x omeiense. You're correct, I was searching in CoL with a misspelling (was spelling it from memory, left out one a middle "e", sorry about that.
I see under "additional information" it lists: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium acuminatum x fangii (excellent)

2. CoL entry for Epimedium sasakii, I missed seeing the "additional information" field that lists: Hybrid taxon.

3. CoL. I'm exploring it, seems to be more definitive than TPL (The Plant List), a consortium of resources including Kew, unfortunately they leave many taxa as "Unresolved" or "Unassessed" which is frustrating. For genus Epimedium, much of the taxonomy came from later 1800s and early 1900s, and at the time botanical nomenclature allowed publishing names for hybrid groups, both for natural hybrids and man-made interspecific hybrids. In essence many such names have been "grandfathered" into modern taxonomy. Besides omeiense & sasaki, (both are natural hybrid groups) I checked other Epimedium names for hybrid groups ("nat" = natural hybrids "mm" = man-made hybrids)

x cantabrigiense (mm) - CoL: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium alpinum x pubigerum
x perralchicum (mm) - CoL: not found
x rubrum (mm) - CoL: not found
x setosum (nat) - CoL: listed as accepted species (it's not a species), no indication of hybrid taxon.
x versicolor (mm) - CoL: listed as synonym of grandiflorum (however for the published name E. versicolor)
x warleyense (mm) - CoL: not found
x youngianum (nat) - CoL: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium diphyllum x grandiflorum

The Plant List lists most of these as unresolved. CoL seems to recognize names for natural hybrids and not man-made hybrid groups (even though those names were formally published), but there's the exception where CoL does accept "x cantabrigiense", hybrids made in Cambridge, England in the early 1930s.

4. Zuzu, your suggestion to remove the "species" name is a more acceptable method of indicating the cultivar, rather than ascribing it to only one of the two parent species names. Since "x versicolor" represents two very different species (grandiflorum & pinnatum ssp. colchicum), and the hybrid group was published and been in use since the mid 1800s, it would be misleading to refer to 'Sulphureum' as either Epimedium grandiflorum 'Sulphureum' or Epimedium pinnatum ssp. colchicum 'Sulphureum', which parent would one favor, doesn't make sense... so better to omit species name.

5. 'Discolor' & 'Cupreum'.
'Discolor' is listed in TPL as a synonym for Epimedium x versicolor. Stearn lists it specifically as a synonym of Epimedium x versicolor 'Versicolor'. Oh my, that's confusing, buy Yes, among the hybrid group name "x versicolor" from the mid 1800s, there were four cultivar named in the same period: 'Cupreum', 'Neosulphurem', 'Sulphureum' and 'Versicolor'. CoL listed 'Discolor' as a synonym of E. grandiflorum.

The name 'Discolor' seems firmly in synonym, never have encountered a plant by that name, thus my surprise hearing this question. Googling around, I found the unfortunate mistake in a recently published book "The Plant Lovers Guide to Epimediums", where the century-and-a-half old invalid name has been brought back from the dead and given spotlight treatment to it, the book author saying about Discolor that it was originally called 'Versicolor'. No! This book is not a taxonomic work, so I consider that an unfortunate mistake.
https://books.google.com/books...

Long and short of it. 'Discolor' is an invalid name (variously assigned) and 'Cupreum' is a valid name for E. x versicolor.

6. Calif_Sue's photo labeled as Epimedium 'Neosulphureum', I cannot see the floral parts, too far away and a bit fuzzy, to make a determination. The cups look very bright yellow which also signals to me it might not be Neosulphureum, but that could just be the lighting or photography. Now that you have a Epimedium 'Neosulphureum' record, I can post some close-up diagnostic photos I have.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Feb 1, 2018 1:15 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
AntMan01 said:

Hi Zuzu, thanks again for your comprehensive response. To help track my response, I added numbers to the 6 main points.

1. Catalog of Life (CoL) and Epimedium x omeiense. You're correct, I was searching in CoL with a misspelling (was spelling it from memory, left out one a middle "e", sorry about that.
I see under "additional information" it lists: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium acuminatum x fangii (excellent)

2. CoL entry for Epimedium sasakii, I missed seeing the "additional information" field that lists: Hybrid taxon.

3. CoL. I'm exploring it, seems to be more definitive than TPL (The Plant List), a consortium of resources including Kew, unfortunately they leave many taxa as "Unresolved" or "Unassessed" which is frustrating. For genus Epimedium, much of the taxonomy came from later 1800s and early 1900s, and at the time botanical nomenclature allowed publishing names for hybrid groups, both for natural hybrids and man-made interspecific hybrids. In essence many such names have been "grandfathered" into modern taxonomy. Besides omeiense & sasaki, (both are natural hybrid groups) I checked other Epimedium names for hybrid groups ("nat" = natural hybrids "mm" = man-made hybrids)

x cantabrigiense (mm) - CoL: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium alpinum x pubigerum
x perralchicum (mm) - CoL: not found
x rubrum (mm) - CoL: not found
x setosum (nat) - CoL: listed as accepted species (it's not a species), no indication of hybrid taxon.
x versicolor (mm) - CoL: listed as synonym of grandiflorum (however for the published name E. versicolor)
x warleyense (mm) - CoL: not found
x youngianum (nat) - CoL: Hybrid taxon. Epimedium diphyllum x grandiflorum

The Plant List lists most of these as unresolved. CoL seems to recognize names for natural hybrids and not man-made hybrid groups (even though those names were formally published), but there's the exception where CoL does accept "x cantabrigiense", hybrids made in Cambridge, England in the early 1930s.

4. Zuzu, your suggestion to remove the "species" name is a more acceptable method of indicating the cultivar, rather than ascribing it to only one of the two parent species names. Since "x versicolor" represents two very different species (grandiflorum & pinnatum ssp. colchicum), and the hybrid group was published and been in use since the mid 1800s, it would be misleading to refer to 'Sulphureum' as either Epimedium grandiflorum 'Sulphureum' or Epimedium pinnatum ssp. colchicum 'Sulphureum', which parent would one favor, doesn't make sense... so better to omit species name.

5. 'Discolor' & 'Cupreum'.
'Discolor' is listed in TPL as a synonym for Epimedium x versicolor. Stearn lists it specifically as a synonym of Epimedium x versicolor 'Versicolor'. Oh my, that's confusing, but Yes, among the hybrid group name "x versicolor" from the mid 1800s, there were four cultivar named in the same period: 'Cupreum', 'Neosulphurem', 'Sulphureum' and 'Versicolor'. CoL listed 'Discolor' as a synonym of E. grandiflorum.

The name 'Discolor' seems firmly in synonym, never have encountered a plant by that name, thus my surprise hearing this question. Googling around, I found the unfortunate mistake in a recently published book "The Plant Lovers Guide to Epimediums", where the century-and-a-half old invalid name has been brought back from the dead and given spotlight treatment to it, the book author saying about Discolor that it was originally called 'Versicolor'. No! This book is not a taxonomic work, so I consider that an unfortunate mistake.
https://books.google.com/books...

Long and short of it. 'Discolor' is an invalid name (variously assigned) and 'Cupreum' is a valid name for E. x versicolor.

6. Calif_Sue's photo labeled as Epimedium 'Neosulphureum', I cannot see the floral parts, too far away and a bit fuzzy, to make a determination. The cups look very bright yellow which also signals to me it might not be Neosulphureum, but that could just be the lighting or photography. Now that you have a Epimedium 'Neosulphureum' record, I can post some close-up diagnostic photos I have.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
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Feb 1, 2018 2:30 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Here's a landscape image, with Epimedium x versicolor 'Neosulphureum' on the left, and 'Sulphureum' on the right.



On 'Neosulphureum' notice the light color spurs, they are short, only about half the length of the broad moonlight yellow sepals. The central "cup" (technically the "cup" and spurs are the petals) is lighter yellow than on 'Sulphureum'.

On 'Sulphureum', the spurs are a bit darker (pinkish beige), and longer, almost the length of the sepals. Also notice that there is a cauline set of leaflets on the flower stem, which do not occur with 'Neosulphureum'.

Floral detail of 'Sulphureum', notice length of spurs almost as long as sepals, at the bottom (by my thumb) is the cauline stem leaflet just starting to expand, reddish when first expanding. Epimedium flower parts: in the center what looks like cup and spurs, are the petals, individual petals are a cornucopia shape, the open mouth forming a sort of cup, and the tapering end being the spurs.


Floral detail of 'Sulphureum', top view showing the lovely broad sepals, again the young cauline leaflet is visible. Epimedium flower parts: in this view, notice one flower with "outer sepals" (the outer wrapper of the buds) which are small and dark, these do not persist and fall off. Thee "inner sepals" are what most would call the petals, that's the showy part on Epimedium.


Overall view of Epimedium x versicolor 'Neosulphureum', now that you know the differences, does it look right, I hope so Smiling
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
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Feb 1, 2018 3:01 PM CST
Plants Admin
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I see the difference. The landscape photo is particularly valuable from this standpoint. I hope you'll add the other photos to the database.

Responding to your earlier post, I'll use your number system.

1& 2 -- Correct spelling is crucial when you use the CoL. Unfortunately, it doesn't offer prompts when the spelling is incorrect.

3 -- I would urge you to stop using The Plant List. It hasn't been updated since 2012, and even that update was largely a copy-and-paste of earlier information, some of which was incorrect from the start. Some of the errors were corrected in 2012, including The Plant List's earlier insistence that Buddleia and Buddleja were two different genera. Hilarious! The lack of updating has made some of the information obsolete, however. The Plant List still treats Spiraea x bumalda (S. albiflora x S. japonica) as an accepted name, for example, even though S. albiflora was reclassified as a synonym for S. japonica years ago. This means that the "hybrid" is now a cross of S. japonica x S. japonica. Absurd.

You are correct in your observation that the CoL does not recognize man-made hybrids. I can't explain the inclusion of E. cantabrigiense or the lack of information to suggest that E. setosa should be a hybrid taxon, but I have converted our E. x perralchicum and E. x warleyensis entries to cultivar entries because they do not belong in our database as hybrid taxa. We don't have an entry for E. x rubrum. We do have an entry for an E. alpinum cultivar named 'Rubrum.'

4 & 5 -- I've edited the 'Cupreum' entry to delete the species, and I've deleted the entire entry for 'Discolor' as an invalid name.

6 -- Thank you for the photos showing the difference between the two.
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