Explaining it's concepts in layman's terms.

"Maybe the whole topic is above my head."

Probably not. I remember sitting in class back in the 60s. (Long ago) The professor was trying to explain the impact of Ludwig Bertalanfy's System Theory on traditional scientific thinking.

Mostly the students trained in traditional engineering and science simply could not under stand it. Those of us from a liberal arts background and especially those who were studying ecology got it immediately.

It is not a matter of being 'above anybody's head'. Its a matter of being able to understand something ordinary -- like your back yard --- as a system.

Bertalanfy defined a system as: elements in interaction. Once you understand this interrelationship of things in a dynamic system, as apposed to the traditional "the whole is the sum of its parts" then you can immediately understand what permaculture is about.

Graham Burnett's drawing: "Work with Nature Not Against" made permaculture 'click' for me as a concept.

http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/pe...

O.k. That did not work. Go to the list on the left hand side of the page and click on number 7. Work with Nature not Against.

This is from Graham Burnett's Permaculture, A Beginners Guide.

I can't find where he says this now, but Bill Mollison said, the test of whether a permaculture design is successful, is that after all the plants are in place, you "let 'er rip". If it "rips" then it is a successful permaculture design. I think by that he meant, does everything contribute to the whole, and does the design remain permanent over time.

Well, I definitely didn't mean to stir up confusion, but this has been some good, compelling discussion. Thanks for all that have contributed to this thread.

Some perennial plants are ornamental but also serve as food for wildlife, i think those should fit in very well.

Yes I think so too, Frostweed. And of course many edible herbs are perennials, and so are the little alpine strawberries, aren't they?

Wow! You can use alpine strawberries to whiten your teeth and lighten age spots! I can't think of any garden plant more useful!

Also they taste great with greek yogurt.

http://www.superbherbs.net/alp...

frostweed said:Some perennial plants are ornamental but also serve as food for wildlife, i think those should fit in very well.

I totally concur, Josephine.

Very neat article about alpine strawberries Hazelnut, by the way I love hazelnuts too, they are delicious!!!

thank you, Frostweed.

People are part of the permaculture, so if an ornamental does something for a person,
then perhaps it should be part of that particular permaculture.
Also perhaps there are medicinal components of that ornamental which just have not been
discovered yet.

I think the concept of peraculture was intended as a design tool or a model for thinking about our relationship to our constructed plant environment--the gardens we make. The concept focuses on interconnected-ness and usefulness. So a class of plants, i.e. ornamentals, is not necessarily excluded or included. On the other hand permaculture gardens do tend to be food gardens, because that's what we need. There is nothing in permaculture though that says a plant should be excluded just because it is beautiful.

Guess I am not as into permaculture as i thought.I still intend to introduce vegies and herbs into my garden, remove more lawn, do the best I can on mulching and try to leave the manufactured fertilizers and 'things to kill bugs' behind (am buying ladybugs to try to handle the aphids) and make some raised beds. Really want to try the herb spiral.

all that being said, I derive such intense pleasure from my useless flowers after a long dark cold winter that I can't give them up. but if I can reduce the stress and change some of my counter productive habits, then I will do my best

I have roses. But I am trying to collect some of the older one's so they will have hips in the fall. To me life without roses would not be much of a life. That doesn't mean I won't have blueberries and pear trees as well.

My roses are a developed species - rugosa. About the only ones that will come back here after winter. Buck roses do well here.

I remember the Nootka rose from another Alaskan friend.

Here is an article on the native roses of Alaska. I know there are a lot of them along the US west coast.

http://www.alaskarosesociety.o...

I've come to the conclusion that the answer to my original question is unequivocally yes.

Uh, 'unequivocally yes' to the first question or the second.

milkmood said:I've come to the conclusion that the answer to my original question is unequivocally yes.

I started watching Professor Hooker's permaculture lectures this week and one thing I noticed is he apparently uses plants for ornamental purposes. One photo he showed was of a Castor Bean Plant that he says he planted for the texture, to add a little variety in the appearance of the garden. He even said at the end of the end of the video I just watched, that he believes we should strive to add beauty to the permaculture garden.

Oberon46 said:Uh, 'unequivocally yes' to the first question or the second.

Oh, mainly just the title question.