Plant Database forum: Protocol for plant series

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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 1:47 PM CST

Plants Admin

Here's on I came across Helleborus x hybridus 'Winter Thrillers Red Racer'
Hellebore (Helleborus x hybridus Winter Thriller™ Red Racer)

Like many Helebores 'Red Racer' is part of a series of cultivars, in this case Winter Thrillers™. Is it correct to include Winter Thrillers™ in the cv. name? Without a specific field for series I'm not sure where it should best go.
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Mar 15, 2012 2:19 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

This is something I'm grappling with right now, actually. I have 8 proposals in the queue for 8 Solenostemon plants under the series "Under the Sea".

We will eventually need to add the series name to the database. Until then I'm not sure what to do.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Mar 15, 2012 2:26 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Ok, here's what we'll do for now: I have added "Series name" as a data item. So you can now submit a data proposal and at the end you'll see the place to enter the series name.

Example of it in use:

Coleus (Plectranthus scutellarioides Under the Sea™ Red Coral)
Coleus (Plectranthus scutellarioides Under the Sea™ Bone Fish)

We may change this later but for now this is a fine solution.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 2:33 PM CST

Plants Admin

Thinking out loud. Aren't series names also trade names and usually if not always trademarked? I'm not sure if this is an absolute but both Winter Thrillers and Under the Sea are trademarked. For the time being if we put the Series name in the Trade name field we'd have this:
Lenten Rose (Helleborus x hybridus Winter Thrillers™ Series = 'Red Racer')
Hellebore (Helleborus x hybridus Winter Thriller™ Red Racer)

Shrug!

Edit: doing research w/open response.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Mar 15, 2012 2:34 PM (+)]
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 2:35 PM CST

Plants Admin

Thumbs up
Evan
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 3:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

Dave I THINK Strain is an equivalent name for Series.
and I suppose Hybrids Hellebore (Helleborus 'Brandywine')
Brandywine is also listed as a Series by many nurseries. http://www.monrovia.com/plant-catalog/plants/2669/brandywine...

Can we get a scroll-over noting Strain as an equivalent if this is correct? Which brings me to one difficulty I've found. I believe Winter Queen and Brandywine Series are sold without a cv. name but represent a wide variety of bloom colors.
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Mar 15, 2012 4:11 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

This complication gets a little beyond me, because my understanding is that cultivar names are necessary to distinguish one variety from another. Thus the "trade name" was created to let people register a bland cultivar name but sell it under a trade name.

If a plant is a series then the series name should be in the Series name data area.
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 4:21 PM CST

Plants Admin

Dave, I was writing that 4:33 post while you were posting your solution, which is much better. Ignore it.

What do you think about the Strain vs. Series? I'm seeing both on nursery sites, although Series more frequently.
Evan
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Mar 15, 2012 4:26 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

It does seem that "strain" is used by some to mean series. I wish they would all uniformly use the word series.

Concerning the Hellebore you linked to, it does seem that "Brandywine™" is the trade name and the series is also "Brandywine". I also haven't been able to find what the real cultivar name for it is. But it must have a cultivar name.

The 'Dynamite' crepe myrtle is actually 'Whit II' with a trade name of Dynamite(tm). All trade name plants must have a cultivar name registered to be valid (as far as I know).
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 4:36 PM CST

Plants Admin

For some of the EU cvs. I'm finding what look like seemingly random letter and number strings. I guess trade names are here to stay. I'll try to find out more on the hellebores.
Evan
Name: Bob
Vernon N.J. (Zone 6a)
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NJBob
Mar 15, 2012 4:42 PM CST
How I understand it is a series of plants are a grouping of hybridized plants from one grower like Winter Jewels series comes from Northwest Garden Nursery. In the series individual hybrids that when breed will reproduce the same looking plant.
In a strain like Hellebore Mellow Yellow you will get many different looking flowers. I guess the best way to put it is that strains are not stable in flower color where in a series they should be. So to me they are not the same thing.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
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valleylynn
Mar 15, 2012 5:12 PM CST
The Delosperma can get really confusing for me. Look at the entry for Fire Spinner http://www.plantdelights.com/Delosperma/products/148/
[Last edited by valleylynn - Mar 15, 2012 5:12 PM (+)]
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Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Aroids Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 5:29 PM CST

Plants Admin

Thanks Bob. Does that explain why Helleborus 'Red Racer' Series Name: WINTER THRILLERS™ Series is a named cv. while Helleborus x orientalis 'Winter Queen® strain' I can't seem to find a named cultivar?

The strain is listed in the RHS DB. http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/hortdatabase.as...
Results from search Helleborus strain: http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/summary2.asp?cr...

I noticed that all words in a Series name are capitalized while the word strain is not.

Search Helleborus series: http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/summary2.asp?cr...
Evan
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Mar 15, 2012 5:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

Confused Hi Lynn, It says 'FS' is an unnamed species? And has an illegit cv. name? So 3 wrongs make a right? Whats an HOA ruled neighborhood?
Evan
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

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PollyK
Mar 15, 2012 7:33 PM CST
Evan, I think in the case of Winter Queen strain, they mean it's a group of plants which share similar characteristics of color, height or habit to the ORIGINAL named cultivar. It happens often in lilies. These are seed produced.

This would be as opposed to clone, which would be division produced, or test tube produced. .

So, I would say Winter Queen is the cultivar name, and it should be noted it's a strain and therefore variable.

I'm not sure about series. I would think series might contain strains. Series would be something like Bob said, that a company would produce. Like Northwest produces the Winter Jewels series, and Barry Glick produces the Sunshine series. But I would think these series could be made up of strains. Especially in the case of the Sunshine series. I'm pretty sure Barry produces all his from seed.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
Mar 15, 2012 7:40 PM CST

Plants Admin

Blinking Where's the spinning head smilie when you need it?! or maybe a grabbing head because it hurts smile? Rolling my eyes.
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Mar 15, 2012 7:48 PM CST

Plants Admin

But once your head stops spinning, you have to admire the good definition. Bravo, Polly!
Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
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PollyK
Mar 15, 2012 7:57 PM CST
Did I spin your head, Sue. LOL.

Thanks Zuzu.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Region: California Plant Database Moderator Roses Irises Clematis Garden Photography
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Calif_Sue
Mar 15, 2012 8:25 PM CST

Plants Admin

Yes it did Polly! I was so impressed at your grasp of it and then your written clarification, just made my head spin! Green Grin!
I agree, bravo Polly! Thumbs up
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Name: Polly Kinsman
Hannibal, NY (Zone 6a)

Charter ATP Member Region: United States of America I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Lilies
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PollyK
Mar 15, 2012 8:28 PM CST
What a compliment, thanks.

I first got into the strain thing when people were complaining how their lilies didn't look like the picture of lilies at The Lily Garden, which is known for it's accuracy. Then I found out they were a strain, and noted as such.

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